Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

Not so much never added, but not developed further. I've said before I doubt Eureka is the sort of content they'd have any reason to scrap... BLU and limited jobs more generally, on the other hand, have left a sour taste in the mouths of many, so I doubt it'd fare well on any assessment of its cost-benefit, but that's just a hunch. ;)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I wasn't aiming the statement at anyone in particular. It was just a trend I happened to notice at times throughout the thread. Perhaps I'm being overly cautious but I am very wary of content being delayed or cut in favour of something else. Even in terms of hypothetical talk. If left to the forum community, for instance, we'd see BLU and Eureka removed.

As for Square Enix, I'm not thrilled by some of their decisions lately and I do agree that they need to invest more into FFXIV since it must be making them a fortune at this point. I do recall the development team stating that some problems cannot simply be solved by throwing money at them, though. Which either means that they need additional employees and/or there's executive meddling at play.

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Personally I'd rather them for now on focus on missing genders or even other content over limited jobs, Eureka, PvP (unless they fix it) and I'd rather have the missing genders than any more options, and once we have all the races and hey are finished, then they can start to look for ways to add more customization, but that's just my personal opinion. Also I'd rather have races over glamour personally

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Originally Posted by Lauront

BLU and limited jobs more generally, on the other hand, have left a sour taste in the mouths of many, so I doubt it'd fare well on any assessment of its cost-benefit, but that's just a hunch. ;)

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There's plenty of people who enjoy BLU. Ultimate only sees use by a very small portion of the overall community yet is still a worthy investment on the part of the development team. It was also confirmed in advance that more content is coming for BLU. Personally I'm pretty excited regarding the possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's plenty of people who enjoy BLU. Ultimate only sees use by a very small portion of the overall community yet is still a worthy investment on the part of the development team. It was also confirmed in advance that more content is coming for BLU. Personally I'm pretty excited regarding the possibilities.

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In the cost-benefit assessment: Ultimates take less resources than limited jobs, so even if there's less people playing or clearing it, it's also much cheaper :P

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

In the cost-benefit assessment: Ultimates take less resources than limited jobs, so even if there's less people playing or clearing it, it's also much cheaper :P

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Which is a slippery slope. Not everything added to the game needs to be developed with efficiency in mind. Otherwise the game risks becoming very stagnant. Simply put, I can no longer bring myself to support the addition of the missing genders if those here are willing to sacrifice content that others find to be enjoyable in order to acquire something they desire. It may be seen as petty to some but for me it is a matter of principle.

So... you’re asking SE not to consider cost-benefit when considering how it directs resources within the game.... when it already does that all the time?

Regarding the game becoming stagnant, it’s not a case of saying don’t take risks. Quite the opposite. What I am saying is that if certain features don’t add enough to the game to continue maintaining them, it is prudent to cut your losses and move the resources elsewhere.

It’s a bit baffling to me that people would rather grandstand over this than understand what is being said.

I think the greater problem is that the game is perpetually growing and if the resource doesn't grow to match, the quality is going to suffer. Eventually, the issue preventing them from adding new races is going to also affect other parts of the game. There's the added issue of looking at the current offered content and questioning is it truly worth it - I say this NOT in ana argument to cut it to add MViera or Fhrothgar but to look at the game as a whole. This is why they cut a dungeon to add Eureka.

One thing I will bank on though is Square Enix's care for its reputation and its customer base. That the game exists at all is a testament to that. A Realm Reborn was a watershed moment, one the devs have spent years building up support and confidence in Square Enix. When FFXV got terrible reviews over the story and Chapter 13, did they ignore it? No, they went back and amended it and kept amending it until they felt it reached a quality they and the fans were happy with.

I think the same process is ongoing with the missing Genders, only it is more complex due to the nature of the game itself. Designing a new race take a lot of time and resource, Yoshi P isn't averse to saying no, we have ample evidence of that. But he can't say yes either, hence the response we got. I think part of the issue is they need to look at the cycle and work out if it is possible with the manpower they have and that isn't something they can do until they know how Shadowbringers has been received and how their work cycle is progressing.

Do I think the content balance is right? Well actually No. Personally, I think that Ultimate is utilised by a very low number of players and therefore has less worth than say a 24 man or a normal raid. Would I have it removed? No. But I wouldn't want to see more than 2 fights of them. Firstly because they take a LONG time to complete and secondly in that often when they have been cleared the value of the loot is already surpassed. The small number of players who undertake Ultimates mean their worth as content is much less. Which is why I think cancelling the third ultimate in lieu of the Baldesion Arsenal was the right call for them to do as the baldesion arsenal has a greater scope than ultimates could ever hope to achieve.

Where does this leave the MViewa and Fhrothgar? I think they will come, but only with careful planning and implementation by the devs themselves. However, as a basic bottom line, if they cannot add the missing genders if they come to a time where they will never be added. Then at that point, 2 important NPC's representatives for a Male Viera or a female Hrothgar should be added. None spring to mind for the Male Viera. But the Queen of the Hrothgar would, I think, be a perfect fit for them.

Also I want to make it clear that we don't want content to be cut, and that you should support the thread if that's what you fear because almost nobody is asking for SE to have less content in order to add male viera

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It’s a bit baffling to me that people would rather grandstand over this than understand what is being said.

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It's not grand standing. I'm not one to mince words - the clear implication from reading in between the lines of certain posters is that they're perfectly fine with the idea of seeing certain content neglected, scrapped or removed so long as they get what they desire. They're free to think as much, though they cannot claim to be surprised when others, in turn, withdraw their support for the missing genders as a consequence.

As I've said many times throughout the thread I want to see viera men added to the game. I do not want them to be added at the cost of anything else, though. Even the hypothetical discussion of what could or should be scrapped to make room for them is enough to invite controversy and as such is best avoided altogether.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's not grand standing. I'm not one to mince words - the clear implication from reading in between the lines of certain posters is that they're perfectly fine with the idea of seeing certain content neglected, scrapped or removed so long as they get what they desire. They're free to think as much, though they cannot claim to be surprised when others, in turn, withdraw their support for the missing genders as a consequence.

As I've said many times throughout the thread I want to see viera men added to the game. I do not want them to be added at the cost of anything else, though. Even the hypothetical discussion of what could or should be scrapped to make room for them is enough to invite controversy and as such is best avoided altogether.

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That applies to any feature they add, including Eureka and BLU, which in turn directed resources away from other areas. Are you saying SE should not therefore add anything unless they increase investment into the game and should not assess how resources are being used and whether spending is providing good value for money? I’m trying to understand the logic behind this.

I’m not asking for specific content to be cut - just for them to do what they usually do as a business and prioritise resource flow based on value added rather than simply further feeding sunk costs.

I JUST said this last page:

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

So, once again to be clear: No currently planned and announced content would be cut because of mViera/fHroth. The only way we'd even find out that content was passed over for it would be if Yoshi-P said in an interview: "Oh, yes, we had a new Limited job planned, Gambler, but we decided to switch the team into developing Male Viera and Female Hrothgar."

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BLU will carry on as planned until completion. No content is getting "removed", even the Eureka delay was a result of FEEDBACK as they figured how to make IT more interesting. The only content getting "scrapped" in that scenario would be further limited jobs, and that wouldn't even be Viera/Hroth's fault! It would be because (hypothetically) it was found that the limited job concept was not enjoyed as much as they figured.

Edit:
Just to stress that limited jobs are used as an EXAMPLE, as I don't work for SE, "scrapped" content could be Ultimates, Eureka, Deep Dungeon, or whatever, it is HYPOTHETICAL.

I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree, then. I don't particularly care to speculate over the value of content as it is incredibly subjective and strongly linked to the vision of the development team. As I have stated throughout this very thread I am not against the inclusion of viera men. Yet if they are to be added I do not wish for them to come at the cost of something else. I do not think that is a particularly unfair or controversial opinion, hence my confusion.

Yes, the discussion of the value of content and what could potentially be removed will be brushed off as 'hypothetical' talk but it isn't the first time it has been brought up within this thread and reading between the lines it's clear some posters are actually completely fine with it happening.

I suppose I simply do not understand why there's backlash against people stating they will withdraw support if such a thing is put on the table. Resources are finite and strained, I'm aware of that. I'm sure many others are too. Yet niche content serves a purpose and is a strong appeal to many of those playing this game, myself included. If it were to cease in favour of pure efficiency and straight up fanservice I would grow quite weary of the game much as I found myself drifting away from WoW when I made the decision to give up on it years ago.

Ultimately I suspect many of us are actually on the same page, we're simply getting caught up in the minute details.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Ultimately I suspect many of us are actually on the same page, we're simply getting caught up in the minute details.

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As the 400+ pages debating how "a race we've never seen will absolutely look like, no, really, my uncle that works at SE told me" can attest :p

We're not the devs, so let's let them do their jobs and respectfully give our feedback :D

Male Vieras...

I thirst.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

As the 400+ pages debating how "a race we've never seen will absolutely look like, no, really, my uncle that works at SE told me" can attest :p

We're not the devs, so let's let them do their jobs and respectfully give our feedback :D

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Indeed, that’s all I’m driving at. It’s their job to figure out future resource prioritisation and that applies as much to things like character customisation enhancements and graphics upgrades, as it does to adding the missing genders.

I agree with Theodric that there can be value in niche content; my point is that with resources being as limited as they are they have to be careful how they prioritise which of it sees further development. Even if SE does pour more money into the game, it’s unlikely that they’ll do so unconditionally.

Guys no content will get scrapped to get male Viera other than maybe a bit of glamour, so I think we should stop this discussion since it makes male Viera supporters look bad

You see this sort of "my niche is the most important niche" mentality wherever you go in this game.

I've got friends who were incredibly invested in Ultimate who began to care less for other aspects of the game simply by virtue of them not being Ultimate. When we found out there would be no Ultimate for the 4.4 series of raids a lot of these people took to "blaming" other content for what they perceived to be their "loss" despite never being promised an Ultimate fight for that tier to begin with.

This same feeling seems to be cropping up here. Certain posters are ready to make assessments of what we could do without because they weigh the missing genders above those other things. I'm not leaping to the defense of Eureka and BLU because of any love for them (my BLU is 31, I'm elemental level 25 in Eureka - I hate both of them as content and have zero interest) but I just think trying to make these value assessments is going to alienate the movement as a whole.

Some people loved BLU. Many (somehow, I don't know how myself but hey whatever) loved Eureka. When someone comes here and sees posters putting things they enjoyed on the chopping block they aren't exactly inclined to throw their support behind it. Instead of speculation around what should be cut from the game I think you guys need to stay positive and move away from the topic, very few people are coming out on the other side of the last few pages without egg on their faces.

Agreed. I’ve been quite clear that my assessments are guesses and that I lack the data to make such an assessment. That’s why I don’t want to get drawn out on those kind of things and just respond with ‘that’s the devs’ job to figure out’. I’m just pushing back against the idea that they themselves rate all content equally. They physically cannot do that, and it’s showing with how rushed 4.56 was, as well as how pushed for time they’ve been with some of the new content. I think SE needs to consider increasing their budget, but I agree it’s not helpful to start putting certain types of content on the chopping block, when it’s them who ought to be figuring that out and not us. Player feedback should help them identify what is popular, and then decide what they can invest a bit more in to make work and what is simply a lost cause.

I’d just hate to see them forego something like character customisation engagements or texture upgrades, because they’re stretching themselves far too thinly. Again, at some point the question of should we invest more in this will crop up.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

You see this sort of "my niche is the most important niche" mentality wherever you go in this game.

I've got friends who were incredibly invested in Ultimate who began to care less for other aspects of the game simply by virtue of them not being Ultimate. When we found out there would be no Ultimate for the 4.4 series of raids a lot of these people took to "blaming" other content for what they perceived to be their "loss" despite never being promised an Ultimate fight for that tier to begin with.

This same feeling seems to be cropping up here. Certain posters are ready to make assessments of what we could do without because they weigh the missing genders above those other things. I'm not leaping to the defense of Eureka and BLU because of any love for them (my BLU is 31, I'm elemental level 25 in Eureka - I hate both of them as content and have zero interest) but I just think trying to make these value assessments is going to alienate the movement as a whole.

Some people loved BLU. Many (somehow, I don't know how myself but hey whatever) loved Eureka. When someone comes here and sees posters putting things they enjoyed on the chopping block they aren't exactly inclined to throw their support behind it. Instead of speculation around what should be cut from the game I think you guys need to stay positive and move away from the topic, very few people are coming out on the other side of the last few pages without egg on their faces.

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I agree. I think we should focus on pushing for male viera, not looking at what content should be scrapped for its sake

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Originally Posted by zeylos

it makes male Viera supporters look bad

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Like it's really so hard to do.

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Originally Posted by NoirRen

Like it\\\\'s really so hard to do.

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??????????

So, on a different subject. I was just thinking that I'd like for SE to do male Viera ears (and the females too) move or jiggle around a little bit when you move, since they feel like plastic daggers with weird shape stuck on your head right now

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

You see this sort of "my niche is the most important niche" mentality wherever you go in this game.

I've got friends who were incredibly invested in Ultimate who began to care less for other aspects of the game simply by virtue of them not being Ultimate. When we found out there would be no Ultimate for the 4.4 series of raids a lot of these people took to "blaming" other content for what they perceived to be their "loss" despite never being promised an Ultimate fight for that tier to begin with.

This same feeling seems to be cropping up here. Certain posters are ready to make assessments of what we could do without because they weigh the missing genders above those other things. I'm not leaping to the defense of Eureka and BLU because of any love for them (my BLU is 31, I'm elemental level 25 in Eureka - I hate both of them as content and have zero interest) but I just think trying to make these value assessments is going to alienate the movement as a whole.

Some people loved BLU. Many (somehow, I don't know how myself but hey whatever) loved Eureka. When someone comes here and sees posters putting things they enjoyed on the chopping block they aren't exactly inclined to throw their support behind it. Instead of speculation around what should be cut from the game I think you guys need to stay positive and move away from the topic, very few people are coming out on the other side of the last few pages without egg on their faces.

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Read some of the last page on my last work break and wanted to really dig into some post but didn't have time, glad to see someone try to be the voice of reason though.

One thing I will say at least is that people really need to think about what content's pace would become slower and harder to make as a result of this. It's not a case of "I don't like this one soooo if they didn't do that then great!". Like, how many new models, rigs, animations were put into Blu or Eureka (which both use old, forgotten assets to design content around)?

The people who would be working to bring new races to life are the same ones designing, texturing and modeling new gear. They're the people working to bring us dngs and raids that require new models, animations, cinematic cut scenes and so on. They also create, model, animate minions and mounts. And once the new models (which have to be designed by a concept artist, modeled and rigged and textured by those artist, animated to preform unique race emotes and actions PLUS all past emotes and actions that all races can do by animators ... and have all gear retrofitted to them and have people make sure that gear looks right when they animate) are in the game they forever make doing future things with character models that much harder. Emotes, glams (which are also rewards for DNGs), job skill animations become harder to make and take longer.


Right now they can have people work on all these wonderful things and release them at the pace they are because the infrastructure and work flow is in place to handle this load. That's why it's a pipe dream to expect them to release new races in 6.0. They don't even currently know the full strain of adding what we're getting in ShB yet ... after an expansion to look at things they decided they could handle just 1 more race so I don't expect them to derail development of ShB content to do something they already didn't think they could handle before they can even gather the proper data.

People don't realize how much goes into these things nor how cleverly they reuse assets for things like Eureka and such. Like Jobs ... we're getting 2 new ones. Yay! But with each expansion that becomes harder to do ... because these jobs have to have models made from lvl 1 to max to fit along with every other weapon in the game. They now have to make new weapon models for all this old outdated content. They have to make weapons for old primals and the glowy versions as well. They now have to take out the time to design and model 2 more weapons then they use to and balance 2 more jobs than before. These things don't magically fall out of no where.

That's why I don't personally just blindly "support" bringing in the other genders. If they can find away to make them happen without it negatively effecting the pace or quality of content then sure, I'd love to see what they do with Female Hrothgar cause I would prob play that if they are like the males (I'm gonna save all my Female only glam after I convert to Hrothgar just incase they come someday and blow my shocks off). But I'd never want this game to suffer for what amounts to easily the most expensive and time consuming cosmetic choice to add ... and the live letter makes me think they won't allow that to happen. Either they find away or they don't ... and I don't think they will personally.

It does your cause no favors to start asking for the game to suffer for your demands.

On the topic of viera ears, I did like the forward and backward ears in the male viera concept art. If male viera do get added, I hope these are options.

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Originally Posted by LittleChickenNugget

If you're talking about this thread, it's been kept alive by about two-three people constantly bumping it up to the top when it gets low on the front page for about... ooh, 100 pages now.

Edit
The truth is, minus the handful of die hards, no one really cares about this particular problem any more. You don't see it brought up much on Twitter, never brought up on the Reddit any more, even Tumblr doesn't care so much besides making male viera art from time to time. This is a concern that lost its fire for the most part, especially now that we're closer to an expansion full of brand new actual content.

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Isnt that something that happens with any topic? At first anyone that cares for it will talk about it (but in this case it even got some new people on the forum) and after that it will either die down or kept alive and I honestly see no problem with the last point. First nobody needs to read the thread so I have no understanding for some that soley come here to say that they dislike that its still going on or that people seemingly have too much time...those can just simply ignore the thread and not lose their own time for such posts. (But hey at least those also keep the thread active)

In the end if people stop pushing for this then it might never be added. Look at the bunny suit for men. SE would probably have ignored the request if it was done once or twice, yet people constantly talked about this on the forum or asked for this in liveletters. The same with egi glamours. So instead of just creating a new thread once in a while about this topic why not have a huge one that can be used for everyone. (Of course you will still have those that want to post their own topic too but its not like the forum has a topic limit anyway)

Gone for a few days and miss page 600 and a few rounds of virtue signaling lmao.


Still want buns. Happy page 605.

Please let this thread die. The Devs KNOW you want them. But this will NOT make them add them to the game any faster. Either except it, or be upset unsub and give it 2 years and play another MMO in the meantime.

I have wanted many things for this game ever since 2011, and I am not being salty or entitled. I have fun with the game no matter what, and if they add things I want, then that is a great bonus ;)

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Originally Posted by Altera

Please let this thread die. The Devs KNOW you want them. But this will NOT make them add them to the game any faster. Either except it, or be upset unsub and give it 2 years and play another MMO in the meantime.

I have wanted many things for this game ever since 2011, and I am not being salty or entitled. I have fun with the game no matter what, and if they add things I want, then that is a great bonus ;)

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Letting it die also means that Male Viera (and female Hrothgar) could be seen as not quite as demanded and thus can be pushed back further. Keeping up things like this thread shows there is still a demand.

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Originally Posted by Altera

Please let this thread die. The Devs KNOW you want them. But this will NOT make them add them to the game any faster. Either except it, or be upset unsub and give it 2 years and play another MMO in the meantime.

I have wanted many things for this game ever since 2011, and I am not being salty or entitled. I have fun with the game no matter what, and if they add things I want, then that is a great bonus ;)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

In the end if people stop pushing for this then it might never be added. Look at the bunny suit for men. SE would probably have ignored the request if it was done once or twice, yet people constantly talked about this on the forum or asked for this in liveletters. The same with egi glamours. So instead of just creating a new thread once in a while about this topic why not have a huge one that can be used for everyone. (Of course you will still have those that want to post their own topic too but its not like the forum has a topic limit anyway)

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10characters

[QUOTE=reivaxe;5011307 ... [/QUOTE]

Yeah nah. Expecting them at 6.0 is faaaaaar from a pipe dreams and they could very well be ready. You know just as much as us about whats gonna happen, so while you might think whatever you wish, don\\'t act like it\\'s facts. Then, blindly support? If we don\\'t support them we aint getting them. Then, nobody, like said in the previous pages, is asking the game to suffer. One person simply said that they personally wouldn\\'t mind if other things were cut. Just like how raiders don\\'t care if other things are cut so they can raid

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Originally Posted by Altera

Please let this thread die. The Devs KNOW you want them. But this will NOT make them add them to the game any faster. Either except it, or be upset unsub and give it 2 years and play another MMO in the meantime.

I have wanted many things for this game ever since 2011, and I am not being salty or entitled. I have fun with the game no matter what, and if they add things I want, then that is a great bonus ;)

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Nope. It's not going away until they're added.

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Originally Posted by zeylos

Nope. It's not going away until they're added.

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see you next expansion

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Originally Posted by Kyomagi

see you next expansion

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Why are you going to keep coming back if you dont care. At least I have a reason to be here.

I dont know why people cant not look at a thread they have no interest in, you can.....ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Letting it die also means that Male Viera (and female Hrothgar) could be seen as not quite as demanded and thus can be pushed back further. Keeping up things like this thread shows there is still a demand.

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Dang, I feel bad for female Hrothgar's chances then.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Letting it die also means that Male Viera (and female Hrothgar) could be seen as not quite as demanded and thus can be pushed back further. Keeping up things like this thread shows there is still a demand.

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You'll think but at the same time if this topic is being bumped by almost the same few players over and over is something that can work against you.

Bump.

/10char

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Originally Posted by Altera

Please let this thread die. The Devs KNOW you want them. But this will NOT make them add them to the game any faster. Either except it, or be upset unsub and give it 2 years and play another MMO in the meantime.

I have wanted many things for this game ever since 2011, and I am not being salty or entitled. I have fun with the game no matter what, and if they add things I want, then that is a great bonus ;)

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For people like yourself there is never a time or a place for people to state their feelings on a subject that you don't like. We made thread posts and people complained they were all saying the same thing so we kept it in a single thread and now you complain its going on too long. The fact of the matter is you want to shut people down, either because it annoys you to see this thread going strong or you think we are attacking the dev team which we aren't.

TDLR: Whats the problem Becky?

I want more animation in the Viera ears like the miqo'te have when they get angry. They are pretty stagnant as they are. A twitch here and there would be nice, you know?

People getting offended because people are talking about something they don't want people talking about? Nothing new there.

Most of the complainers still think we're in the fussy stage still. For the most part we've moved past that and are simply discussing/guessing at mViera. If you have a problem with that, I don't know what to tell you. Just ignore us if it bothers you that much.

And for those who may still be angry because of the initial outrage, as I said, we've mostly moved passed that, so not sure what you're still angry about. Maybe it's time for you to move on while we keep up our discussion.

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Originally Posted by Yllania

Why are you going to keep coming back if you dont care. At least I have a reason to be here.

I dont know why people cant not look at a thread they have no interest in, you can.....ignore it.

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eh sorry, my comment was to him basically telling him if we were going to get Male V, it will be in the next expansion. Im not going anywhere, im not a man baby