Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

A community solution would be something like what has been done in JP datacenters in which a blacklist is held outside of game for offending players. This is actually toxic but at the same time a clear solution.

---

An external blacklist doesn't really fix anything. At some point, you just have to accept that there's a good amount of casuals that are just not good at the game and some duties will go slower than usual. You'll most likely almost never see these people in your ex/savage pf anyway so does it really matter in the end?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daibunnie

An external blacklist doesn't really fix anything. At some point, you just have to accept that there's a good amount of casuals that are just not good at the game and some duties will go slower than usual. You'll most likely almost never see these people in your ex/savage pf anyway so does it really matter in the end?

---

To them it does, we wouldn't have a thread with near 600 replies and 30k views otherwise. I have to ultimately assume things are worse in the NA datacenters because a lot of the people here insist it's a constant thing in DF.

I really genuinely do not see it on the Chaos datacenter, and I barely ever do anything that isn't done through DF. All I ever experience is what you can expect when DF throws you into <30 or even still <40 content, tanks that don't fully grasp their stance and how it works, healers only using Cure, DPS not AoEing. Yes, it is what is being described in this thread, but in the context of where I see it, it's people learning and usually listening when they're given advise with which to improve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lanadra

Words!

---

It's the same here but some people have sort of constructed something like a collective delusion. The short version is that basically people will ignore 90% of the times when they steamroll a dungeon or w/e DF content but hyperfocus on the bad run. They then go and share this with their community and it begins to appear like it's a massive problem that's happening ALL THE TIME when in reality it isn't all that common an occurrence on an individual level. Some also start to nitpick every little mistake in order to collect a story to tell like some sort of weird outrage porn addiction.

Also, LOL @ blacklists. Good luck convincing the tens of thousands of people you'd need for that to have any effect to keep up with an ever growing blacklist and cross check it with all their duty finder groups.

Pages and pages and people still don't see the basic point, or construct bizarre strawmen out of their own perceptions. I suppose it's fine to do so to not have to face the truth or deal with correctable inadequacy, it is easier to just keep using after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

A community solution would be something like what has been done in JP datacenters in which a blacklist is held outside of game for offending players. This is actually toxic but at the same time a clear solution.

---

Japanese players seem to have the right idea. Everyone puts in their work. There is no reason to fear the blacklist if a player contributes like everyone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

Pages and pages and people still don't see the basic point, or construct bizarre strawmen out of their own perceptions. I suppose it's fine to do so to not have to face the truth or deal with correctable inadequacy, it is easier to just keep using after all.

---

I mean, as some of us, plenty of us, have told you numerous times, the notion of 'they're everywhere' comes of as the bizarre strawman to us. Especially to those of us who use DF constantly and do. not. see. it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lanadra

To them it does, we wouldn't have a thread with near 600 replies and 30k views otherwise. I have to ultimately assume things are worse in the NA datacenters because a lot of the people here insist it's a constant thing in DF.

I really genuinely do not see it on the Chaos datacenter, and I barely ever do anything that isn't done through DF. All I ever experience is what you can expect when DF throws you into <30 or even still <40 content, tanks that don't fully grasp their stance and how it works, healers only using Cure, DPS not AoEing. Yes, it is what is being described in this thread, but in the context of where I see it, it's people learning and usually listening when they're given advise with which to improve.

---

I can say, after making an alt on chaos(few friends are on eu). It seems to be an entirely different experience than NA. I wasn’t lying when i said i probably have an experience like this every other day or some weeks every single day i go to do roulettes. So far on EU i haven’t had much trouble at all and it feels nice, so it’s probably very much a big NA problem and rarer in the other data centers(someone correct me if i’m wrong please).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lanadra

I mean, as some of us, plenty of us, have told you numerous times, the notion of 'they're everywhere' comes of as the bizarre strawman to us. Especially to those of us who use DF constantly and do. not. see. it.

---

Oh we using periods now! I can do that. Just. Because. You. Do. Not. See. It. Does. Not. Mean. There. Is. Not. A. Problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I can say, after making an alt on chaos(few friends are on eu). It seems to be an entirely different experience than NA. I wasn’t lying when i said i probably have an experience like this every other day or some weeks every single day i go to do roulettes. So far on EU i haven’t had much trouble at all and it feels nice, so it’s probably very much a big NA problem and rarer in the other data centers(someone correct me if i’m wrong please).

---

That I can believe and is also in part what I think almost has to be the case. The whole trouble with ERP to give another example (and hey, Caurcas did mention this in their OP) also seems to primarily be an NA datacenter issue. Don't get me wrong, we get the 'u don't pay my sub' types, I've seen them.. but I also wasn't lying way back in this thread when I said that I can count the amount of times I've seen it on one hand.

At the same time, it's entirely possible others may not share my experience as far as Chaos datacenter goes, but I've played here since I started almost a year ago and 9 out of 10 times my DF runs are smooth sailing. It is what makes it so difficult to believe the notion of 'these maliciously bad players are everywhere', it's not because I want to make excuses for them or 'hide it', it's because I don't see it, I don't experience it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

Oh we using periods now! I can do that. Just. Because. You. Do. Not. See. It. Does. Not. Mean. There. Is. Not. A. Problem.

---

And just because it is a problem somewhere does not mean it a problem everywhere across the entire player base. Read my above response to KizuyaKatogami.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lanadra

*snip*

---

Been playing for about 4-6 years now exclusively on NA data centers, if it's different over in chaos god bless you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lanadra

I mean, as some of us, plenty of us, have told you numerous times, the notion of 'they're everywhere' comes of as the bizarre strawman to us. Especially to those of us who use DF constantly and do. not. see. it.

---

I think that the issue is being very, very exaggerated, but I would be foolish to say that it never happens, because it does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think that the issue is being very, very exaggerated, but I would be foolish to say that it never happens, because it does.

---

What leads me to disagree with it being exaggerated is not only my own personal experience but also the many threads that have been made regarding this topic. Not only that but also the fact there is an entire subreddit dedicated to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

What leads me to disagree with it being exaggerated is not only my own personal experience but also the many threads that have been made regarding this topic. Not only that but also the fact there is an entire subreddit dedicated to it.

---

OH it's exaggerated. I have very little problems in DF and I play on multiple data centers with various alts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

OH it's exaggerated. I have very little problems in DF and I play on multiple data centers with various alts.

---

But there is a WHOLE subreddit, Layla! A SUBREDDIT!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hobostew

But there is a WHOLE subreddit, Layla! A SUBREDDIT!

---

Yeah that makes it official. Sorry they have to be playing a different game than me. I'm one of those crazy people who plays more content than most and I don't see it sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Yeah that makes it official. Sorry they have to be playing a different game than me. I'm one of those crazy people who plays more content than most and I don't see it sorry.

---

I mean i see it at least every other day but everyone’s different i suppose. I just don’t think it’s as exaggerated as some people may be trying to lead others to believe. Granted i’m on the “bad” dc (crystal)I gave the subreddit as an example though just because of the quantity that there is there. Dunno why there’s sarcasm regarding that :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean i see it at least every other day but everyone’s different i suppose.

---

Oh you see it. Oh I don't doubt you one bit. You see a lot of things. You also post in here multiple times a day trying to push your agenda. Sorry but I don't see it and I don't buy it.

Generally speaking, people often use themselves as the benchmark for their own standards in a simple bid to preserve their ego.

If someone isn't very good, more often than not they will have standards matching their own skill-level, and have difficulty seeing this problem as they are looking from the inside out.

My own stint on EU was nightmare inducing; Wipes to the final boss of Heroes Gauntlet were almost a daily occurrence, typically instigated by someone with the French language tag on ._.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean i see it at least every other day but everyone’s different i suppose. I just don’t think it’s as exaggerated as some people may be trying to lead others to believe. Granted i’m on the “bad” dc (crystal)I gave the subreddit as an example though just because of the quantity that there is there. Dunno why there’s sarcasm regarding that :p

---

I'm on the Mos Eisley of Data Centers - Crystal - as well, and I don't see it. Very rarely I'll run into someone that is pretty bad, but it's super rare. I'm not a super fantastic player myself, I'm competent, but I make mistakes. Perhaps it's the bad sticks out more than the multiple runs that had no issues that make it feel so prevalent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleImp

My own stint on EU was nightmare inducing; Wipes to the final boss of Heroes Gauntlet were almost a daily occurrence, typically instigated by someone with the French language tag on ._.

---

I play on Chaos and on Light and I don't see it. That's not to say there aren't problems with maybe new content with people learning mechanics. I know Crystal used to be the butt of many jokes that all the good players left and went to Aether but I play on Crystal too and things there go just fine. I rarely see an abandon and wipes are fairly infrequent.

That's not to say there aren't differences in data centers because i'm sure there are. One example I might use was that my BA clear on Crystal took a lot more effort than my clears on Aether but for the most part people there are equally competent but the numbers of people playing some content are less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Oh you see it. Oh I don't doubt you one bit. You see a lot of things. You also post in here multiple times a day trying to push your agenda. Sorry but I don't see it and I don't buy it.

---

Pushing my agenda? What lol. Didn’t know asking people to use an aoe in dungeons was pushing an agenda but go off i guess.

While we can't discuss it openly here, there is data out there on this topic. Data that favors one side of the argument. However, this can't be brought to bare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

While we can't discuss it openly here, there is data out there on this topic. Data that favors one side of the argument. However, this can't be brought to bare.

---

Oh you mean parsers? is that how you make judgements about players in DF and casual content?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lanadra

To them it does, we wouldn't have a thread with near 600 replies and 30k views otherwise

---

I dont know about others but I'm just here for the drama lol, not because I really have an opinion on the topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleImp

If someone isn't very good, more often than not they will have standards matching their own skill-level, and have difficulty seeing this problem as they are looking from the inside out.

---

I have a feeling.. could this be true? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleImp

Generally speaking, people often use themselves as the benchmark for their own standards in a simple bid to preserve their ego.

---

To add onto this.

Also people in general also view their way of learning and their ease of learning as the benchmark for how others learn. So someone who picks up the game and is a natural at it, finds it hard to understand how someone can spend hours on trying to learn the game and not get to where they were when they started the game.

It also goes in reverse. The player who struggles to learn the game, can't imagine how someone can just instantly pick it up.

Logically of course most people realize this. But in the heat of the moment, you fall back on "why can't you remember to use your cooldowns?" or "why do you expect me to fix my mistakes instantly?".

And then to vent all of the above since you can't really vent to the player in question, especially in this game, players go to forums to let it out. And since players aren't as likely to tell their successful easy runs online, it can easily paint a picture of it's a widespread problem if the player base is large enough. Because typically only a minority of players will use a forum or other such social feature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seera1024

To add onto this.

Also people in general also view their way of learning and their ease of learning as the benchmark for how others learn. So someone who picks up the game and is a natural at it, finds it hard to understand how someone can spend hours on trying to learn the game and not get to where they were when they started the game.

It also goes in reverse. The player who struggles to learn the game, can't imagine how someone can just instantly pick it up.

Logically of course most people realize this. But in the heat of the moment, you fall back on "why can't you remember to use your cooldowns?" or "why do you expect me to fix my mistakes instantly?".

And then to vent all of the above since you can't really vent to the player in question, especially in this game, players go to forums to let it out. And since players aren't as likely to tell their successful easy runs online, it can easily paint a picture of it's a widespread problem if the player base is large enough. Because typically only a minority of players will use a forum or other such social feature.

---

The thing is. Using AoEs is a couple buttons. If a person can't figure out how to use hotkeys, I don't really have much sympathy for them, frankly. Heck, they don't even have to be on hotkeys, they could also click them.

Why is not wanting to play with what you view as dead weight and or inconvenience an ego thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Oh you mean parsers? is that how you make judgements about players in DF and casual content?

---

The data is unbiased the judgement can wait however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I have a feeling.. could this be true? :)

---

Yeah that definitely is a part of it along with this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seera1024

To add onto this.

Also people in general also view their way of learning and their ease of learning as the benchmark for how others learn. So someone who picks up the game and is a natural at it, finds it hard to understand how someone can spend hours on trying to learn the game and not get to where they were when they started the game.

It also goes in reverse. The player who struggles to learn the game, can't imagine how someone can just instantly pick it up.

Logically of course most people realize this. But in the heat of the moment, you fall back on "why can't you remember to use your cooldowns?" or "why do you expect me to fix my mistakes instantly?".

And then to vent all of the above since you can't really vent to the player in question, especially in this game, players go to forums to let it out. And since players aren't as likely to tell their successful easy runs online, it can easily paint a picture of it's a widespread problem if the player base is large enough. Because typically only a minority of players will use a forum or other such social feature.

---

Someone made a post that resonated with my experiences fairly well that a lot of the toxic people casual or elite are people who are scared of being judged by people who they don't even know exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Oh you mean parsers? is that how you make judgements about players in DF and casual content?

---

ROFL Parsing in the DF is the ultimate level of sad. Its not even worth running ACT in DF as bad play is obivious :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

ROFL Parsing in the DF is the ultimate level of sad. Its not even worth running ACT in DF as bad play is obivious :D

---

From what my friends tell me parsing during roulettes actually make them worse because you can see it even clearer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nethereal

From what my friends tell me parsing during roulettes actually make them worse because you can see it even clearer.

---

Yeah parsing in DF is the ultimate form of depression within this game. You puts a number to all the suspicious things one may have had prior.

Not endorsing it, but if anything this data serves to prove my point. Math does not lie. However, due to ToS we can't really apply this data ingame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

You really need to be clear when you keep saying "or SCH" - nowhere in your posts did it sound as if you meant you get your free leveling via SMN, only that somehow SCH was an easier healer despite it requiring the same thing you claim you weren't paying attention to/now claim it's simply inability to do anything with the party menu via controller.

Clarity goes a long way so people don't misunderstand. Though really, I raided with a WHM who managed controller party menu movement far more easily than I think I even manage my kb+m setup, so it's something that can be improved on.

Though I suppose this illustrates a few points brought up elsewhere in the thread, so. /shrug



If there was context before the last page, I may have missed it. Because I saw no context other than randomly mentioning "or SCH" when referring to playing healers for titles. That is not enough for everyone to take that as "leveling SMN instead" when it isn't mentioned anywhere.

Clarity goes a long way.

---

The context is wanting to level a healer job, but not wanting to play as a healer in group content. The alternatives are leveling a healer job solo or Scholar. If you're not familiar enough with Scholar for that to be clear enough for you, it's fine.

That said...

Quote:

---

Either way, their later admittance of it not being a problem of attention but of practice simply feeds into many points brought up elsewhere in the thread. And really, my point was less their side thing regarding not being able to manage a basic fundamental task of healing, but more the overall truth that this game's community in particular fosters a very coddling and toxic environment where people are willfully defending the sort of players who will actively drag the enjoyment, time, and effort of others down because they are selfish and do not understand their own responsibility in a team-based environment.

Most other games have toxic elitism, and XIV also has that in some circles. But I can tell you, the most toxic and rancid individuals I've met in this game have been people adhering to the casualist mindset of "screw you, I can do whatever I want because only I matter".

---

You cannot make the logical conclusion of why Scholar is unique in being able to level a healer without being a healer in group content, and yet you somehow get...

"the overall truth that this game's community in particular fosters a very coddling and toxic environment where people are willfully defending the sort of players who will actively drag the enjoyment, time, and effort of others down because they are selfish and do not understand their own responsibility in a team-based environment. "

...out of me saying I don't do group content as a healer because I am not good at it.

That's an illogical conclusion you're getting from my post. Did you even understand my post at all? It would certainly explain why you were unable to understand why Scholar was mentioned as it was not randomly mentioned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nayout

This explains many things lol

---

Like what? (And I hope you actually read what you quoted and understood it, unlike Kaoru_Nagisa apparently.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seera1024

So someone who picks up the game and is a natural at it, finds it hard to understand how someone can spend hours on trying to learn the game and not get to where they were when they started the game.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seera1024

And then to vent all of the above since you can't really vent to the player in question, especially in this game, players go to forums to let it out. And since players aren't as likely to tell their successful easy runs online, it can easily paint a picture of it's a widespread problem if the player base is large enough. Because typically only a minority of players will use a forum or other such social feature.

---

man, i even said a few of these things
why do they respond to you, and not me?
smh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tactical

man, i even said a few of these things
why do they respond to you, and not me?
smh

---

It was obviously a Tactical choice of theirs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleImp

Generally speaking, people often use themselves as the benchmark for their own standards in a simple bid to preserve their ego.

If someone isn't very good, more often than not they will have standards matching their own skill-level, and have difficulty seeing this problem as they are looking from the inside out.

My own stint on EU was nightmare inducing; Wipes to the final boss of Heroes Gauntlet were almost a daily occurrence, typically instigated by someone with the French language tag on ._.

---

I'd say it's a pretty bad take to basically label those of us in this thread who don't see these issues as they play as 'Oh the only reason you don't see it is because you're just as bad as them so obviously your standards are even much lower than that.. so yeah from that perspective obviously nothing would seem to be wrong'.

Granted, you obviously didn't literally say that, but it is pretty much what you mean to imply. I can respect that you and others have different experiences, especially on the NA datacenters from how it would seem, but perhaps also respect that the opposite can also be true?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LisSquid

You could play a single player game.

---

Thank you for proving the OP's message.

Look, if you want to have a better community, don't dogpile on a person's concerns with mean-spirited comments to make them feel unwelcome. The OP has legitimate concerns of how the game performs structurally. Allow space for solutions. There's TONS of methods by which the game developers could reconsider how leveling and training characters could be reinvented in a logical and sensible manner.

Especially rotations. Especially skill acquisition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

OH it's exaggerated. I have very little problems in DF and I play on multiple data centers with various alts.

---

I suppose this depends on how you look at things.. In a simple binary metric of suceed or fail to complete the duty then true there's very little problems.
But if you look at it in a measure of time (arguably the most valuable commodity to most players) or something, the differences do become much more apparent. Even in content so simple and over powered such as LOTA (alliance roulette) you can easily notice it. A decent group will kill behemoth before his second ecliptic meteor even goes out, and will then repeat that on the last boss with ancient flares. Where in comparison a not so decent group can still see behemoth doing 3 ecliptic meteors and find the last boss is still at 25-30% when the second ancient flare starts casting..

So while a run may still be completed It's pretty easy to see how large the disparity between players can really be. and while I agree that it can be highly over exagerated the opposite is also true in that it often just gets brushed under the carpet under the guise of a binary did you win? Yes / No. then "good job" Which in itself often leads to the problems that people often raise, because that creates a perception that hey I beat this on normal so I'm good enough for extreme, Join a PF only to find themselves overwhelmed and boom. Another party finder horror story complaining about being kicked from the group by some toxic elitists / tryhard / insert buzz term here. because you're wasting 7 other peoples time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

You cannot make the logical conclusion of why Scholar is unique in being able to level a healer without being a healer in group content, and yet you somehow get...

"the overall truth that this game's community in particular fosters a very coddling and toxic environment where people are willfully defending the sort of players who will actively drag the enjoyment, time, and effort of others down because they are selfish and do not understand their own responsibility in a team-based environment. "

...out of me saying I don't do group content as a healer because I am not good at it.

---

I think your own reading comprehension needs some work, because I clearly stated in the quote,

"And really, my point was less their side thing regarding not being able to manage a basic fundamental task of healing, but"

It was not about you not being able to nor seeming to want to learn how to manage healing better on a controller. My side mention about you and healing was not even remotely part of the further discussion in that post. My main point had nothing to do with you or your SCH stuff. I was reiterating the rest of my initial post in this thread, unrelated to you and your posts.

You are really not that important to me lol.

Also, I did not read beyond that initial page, so no - if there were context clues to tie SMN and SCH together beyond just ~assumption and logic~, I missed them. I don't play SMN and leveled SCH on an alt from 30. Not everyone is going to insta-click that you meant you used the DPS cheat to level SCH in comparison to the other healers, especially when no mention of SMN came about until someone else pointed it out and reminded me.