Character Creation Has A Race Problem

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Originally Posted by Nandina

I know it's a character creation issue hence the title. I wanted to make a black girl but was extremely limited in my options to do so because of the way the character creator was set up on the Hyur. I don't know if you saw the videos I posted where you pretty much are just delegated to one hairstyle and the same nose and face combo.

At this point we can really just dead the thread, cause clearly everyone is perceiving the issue differently and we're getting nowhere.

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You could have said "Character creation needs more options" "Character creation has a race problem" is not a topic title that spawns good feedback.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

My intent was to let SE know that there are black and brown players who pay a sub, too, and we want A, B, C, and D. I feel the Hyur race has a problem because they're a human equivalent, but yet weren't diverse enough. And in previous pages we've already acknowledged that people have a problem with the way I phrased my words. In the previous pages I also clarified further and gave examples. At that point everything revolving around how I said it, and not the main topic, was BS. I'm not responsible for anyone's emotions. I'm responsible for my emotions; just as you're responsible for yours. If there was a misunderstanding of the intent, all they had to do is exactly what you did, and ask me, lol. There's no fuss. No argument. Nothing. Does this clarify things further or is there still a misunderstanding?

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I dont think that SE thinks there are no brown and black players playing the game, and I would imagine you would concede that too. So if that was youre thinking, its a bit patronizing that you have to 'inform' them of that fact. Just saying.

From here, your post Im quoting seems to acknowledge to some extent that how you phrased things was a problem. So why do you resort to to lowkey assumptions and accusations on detractors? I mean, you do understand that casting aspersions doesnt help your position when you are engaging with your detractors. You use inflammatory language at teh initial post, which gets a lot of people riled. You acknowledge "Hey, maybe thats an issue" then you go back to using it. So, the question is simple. Am I giving you to much credit here? Do you understand fully that using inflammatory language and casting aspersions is pretty much isnt helping you, either in making suggestions to SE or engaging with your detractors?

Im gonna make this a clear point too: Even if your initial intent was to pose a question towards SE, it is in your own best interests to get as many people on your side of the issue, so that the request appears more genuine to SE. If a decent segment of hte player base supports your request, theyre more likely to react to it. So casting aspersions and the like against your detractors, using language that is prone to cause flaming and heated dialogue, and the like isnt in the interest of your goals. 'Cause the greatest irony of this entire damn thread is simple: People want more customization. No one here is seriously arguing against it. What they have issue is how you came to the conclusion the game needs and then casting it as a racial issue in your opener. Whether it is or not, being smart enough to know that "Hey, if I phrase this like this, its going to cause more issues and stall out what I want to see in the game."

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Originally Posted by Nandina

I see what's being said, but I'm hardly the first person to speak on behalf of people. I'm not equating the issue, but just using an example, Martin Luther King spoke up for others. Nelson Mandela spoke up for others, etc. We have a whole Me Too movement going on where people are speaking up for people. We had gay marriage where people spoke up for people. While character creation in a video game is no where near as drastic or severe as those real life issues (and is very trite in comparison), I've never known it to be a problem to speak up for others. I acknowledge that there are black people who never wanted to be integrated, there are gay people who didn't want gay marriage or believed in it, there are women who can't stand the Me Too movement, but it doesn't change the fact that there were others who did and that their opponents still benefit from it. I can't expect to get these things if I don't call it out or speak up on it. I'm sure if we did get the other nose, lips, hair options; that there would be people who disagree with the premise now who may utilize them in the future. But if not, they still have the option to. Does that make sense?

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Well, Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela, both very important people, spoke up during times where black people were not shown or given the same freedom and equality as white people, they stood against a sea of bias hatred and fear because others were either too afraid of being put in jail or worse, killed for their beliefs to freely speak their rights and outcry against others for trying to take them away. But, you're also in agreement that character creation is very trite in comparison towards those issues....same thing with using the Me Too movement which is also a very serious issue. It's fine to speak up and advocate that you want more styles that you think are lacking. But again, that's you. What you perceive is not what everyone else perceives. You are speaking up for what you believe is lacking, you shouldn't be speaking up for an entire and large group of people because you feel or think that they're slighted or that they should feel slighted for it, namely a whole ethnicity. And that's fine, it's fine to speak up for what you believe is lacking. But, don't label it as a racial issue or that you need to speak for an entire group of people and that's your excuse.

I shouldn't speak up, not that I would, for the entirety of another race even if I was part of that said race. It's not my place. It's not your place. It's no one's place on this really. Doing so would make me look and feel arrogant that I'm somehow more important and able to clarify what an entire race of people want and that I'm some expert on it, when clearly, we're all definitely not. Just because you're part of said race, does not mean that you can speak up for what others want and that you know better than they do initially.

That's the thing.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Seems to me people are against the idea. I'm going to need for you all to remain consistent. Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

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Don't.

Don't you even dare to say something like that again. I am black, living in one of the most segregated cities in America. And one of the things I absolutely cannot stand is when people start trying that reverse racism bs in every form of media, employment, daily life, etc. There is a big difference between saying that there is an issue with the character creator, and saying that the developers are tone-deaf to minorities.

Don't you dare sit there and type that out, saying that nobody wants black features. You want the pretense to be dropped, fine, let's drop all pretenses. I find your original post to be utter garbage that is designed to bait and spur on an argument. I find it disgusting that you are taking on the role of a defiant victim, that you and others are accusing many posters of not wanting 'black features'. Yes, the thread goes on track for maybe a couple pages, but somehow it always circles back to this so-called underrepresentation that keeps getting brought up. You already knew that it was going to start a debate when you said that people were going to be up in their feelings. Yeah, no shit, you are race baiting.

Quit it.

Get over yourself. You dare to bring up MLK and Nelson Mandela...people who actually had real issues to deal with, who actually got up and did something about it. What have you done? Jumped on a computer to argue on a forum. How disgustingly arrogant you are. Your name, your forum name, does not belong in the same footnote as those two amazing gentlemen, who made REAL change on REAL issues. You speak on those two in a thread that you started - you are not speaking up for nothing except this victim mentality that you crafted for yourself, and got some like-minded individuals who are riding the same victim-sharing train that you are conducting right now.

That's quite the ego you got there.

I say we aim to over take the Tales From the Duty Finder thread for number of posts. We've only got 16k+ more to go, we can do it!

Is there a thread were we can post hairstyles we want from the CC?

Cause I tried to get that going in this thread but ... no dice.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Is there a thread were we can post hairstyles we want from the CC?

Cause I tried to get that going in this thread but ... no dice.

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There are several already made, but you'd probably have to use the search fuction to find them. You could start your own. Not the most popular opinion, but it's an option.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

I know it's a character creation issue hence the title. I wanted to make a black girl but was extremely limited in my options to do so because of the way the character creator was set up on the Hyur. I don't know if you saw the videos I posted where you pretty much are just delegated to one hairstyle and the same nose and face combo.

At this point we can really just dead the thread, cause clearly everyone is perceiving the issue differently and we're getting nowhere.

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How come you did not just not title the thread; Character creator needs more options or something along those lines. I am willing to bet that most responses in this thread are in favor of more options. It is when you frame the thread as a racial issue that created all of these issues. Instead of going with the mindset character creator is dated and lacks options you decided to go with SE is catering to a certain demographic. Which is unfair to SE, since that is a reach to make the claim that was their intent.

Why was my post deleted? Someone can make race-baiting threads, but I can't address it? Nothing I said was anywhere near as inflammatory as what the OP posted.

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

Why was my post deleted? Someone can make race-baiting threads, but I can't address it? Nothing I said was anywhere near as inflammatory as what the OP posted.

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Mine was, too. But the post I quoted used abrasive language, so that may have been why, if you quoted the same post. For what it’s worth, I agreed with what you had written.

I’ll just repeat the ending part of my post, because it’s what I wanted to say the minute I saw this thread: Ask for more character customization; ask for more options for faces, lips, eyes, jaws, noses; ask for sliders and color wheels, etc.. But don’t bring a racial divide into a game that doesn’t classify races by the color of their skin.

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

Why was my post deleted? Someone can make race-baiting threads, but I can't address it? Nothing I said was anywhere near as inflammatory as what the OP posted.

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I wouldn't be mad - honestly, this thread should've been locked a very long time ago. I am amazed that the mods let it go on this long.

SE before this thread is locked, can a brotha get some locs?????

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Originally Posted by Sirius-Khan

SE before this thread is locked, can a brotha get some locs?????

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Guys should've been able to have locks a LoooOOOOOONG time ago. It's crazy that they still don't.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I wouldn't be mad - honestly, this thread should've been locked a very long time ago. I am amazed that the mods let it go on this long.

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It's clearly something they must like about this thread. Don't know what though. If posts are being deleted it means they've been here the whole entire time.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

It's clearly something they must like about this thread. Don't know what though. If posts are being deleted it means they've been here the whole entire time.

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Who knows. It's a sign to let the thread die though, so I'm gonna take the obvious hint and leave the thread alone. I would prefer not to get hit with a ban hammer lol.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

It's clearly something they must like about this thread. Don't know what though. If posts are being deleted it means they've been here the whole entire time.

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Drama threads are always fun to read. May help pass their time over there at work as well ;)

There is no race problem because we are playing a game and the world of this game is not called earth.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Under the nose options, there's are no truly wider options (I'm not saying the nose has to take up the entire face). There are no larger fuller lips. On brown skin tones, this makes the character appear ashy and in severe need of lotion. Skin tone alone is not diversity. Sure you can make your character Sudanese black, but if the nose and lips are slim and thin, is it really a black person? No.

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Your premise that all black people have wide noses and full lips is an offensive stereotype.

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Originally Posted by Bahd_Monkey

Your premise that all black people have wide noses and full lips is an offensive stereotype.

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I get that we're now all just here to be outraged, however, different ethnicities & races do have distinct facial features that tend to be more prominent within the group. Obviously there will be variety, and there can be a good amount of it, but trying to claim that this is now all just an offensive stereotype is something else.

Anyhoo, check out these three chicks. Three different races for sure, right? How can you tell? People who have more experience at discerning features may even be able to take a guess at ethnicity.
https://i.imgur.com/i2YzCCQ.png

I do get your comment though. Speaking in absolutes is generally a quick way to have someone disagree with you and tell you you're wrong, because there's a good chance you are. Obviously, not all black people have broader noses, larger mouths, etc.

With that said, I think I sort of understand where they're coming from (even though a lot of it is worded like poo). I made the character below, gave her the darkest skin tone possible, but to me she just looks like a rather dark white chick (....but what makes her 'white'?!? :P ). https://i.imgur.com/KFTSfdu.png

I don't think SE has a race problem, I think they just suffer from bland and homogenized features. Some variety could be nice :3




Also, didn't mean to double-post :x lol. OOPS.

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Originally Posted by Bahd_Monkey

Your premise that all black people have wide noses and full lips is an offensive stereotype.

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Uh... it's not though. Most black people do have those distinct features. Especially Africans. I'm not being stereotypical. I live around a lot of black people and am black. We have those features though obviously there will be exceptions.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Three different races for sure, right?

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Nope. Definitely all human.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

Nope. Definitely all human.

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The truth :D

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Originally Posted by MsQi

Nope. Definitely all human.

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Well, if I asked for species you'd be correct.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Well, if I asked for species you'd be correct.

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I am not a species. That's for ANIMALS.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

I am not a species. That's for ANIMALS.

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I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Humans, or rather Homo Sapiens, are a species.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/homo-sapiens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/...s/homo-sapiens

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Humans, or rather Homo Sapiens, are a species.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/homo-sapiens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/...s/homo-sapiens

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I'm just messing with you Skivvy : o

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

I'm just messing with you Skivvy : o

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My poor heart can't take anymore! lol. You got me! D:

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Humans, or rather Homo Sapiens, are a species.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/homo-sapiens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/...s/homo-sapiens

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Human is a race as well. Race is a group of related individuals. It can mean anything from the Human race to your immediate family.

The pedantry in this thread is real. If you walked up to anyone and asked what race they were, I highly doubt any of them would answer "human".

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

The pedantry in this thread is real. If you walked up to anyone and asked what race they were, I highly doubt any of them would answer "human".

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Oh i would answer that because the question alone screams for it.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

The pedantry in this thread is real. If you walked up to anyone and asked what race they were, I highly doubt any of them would answer "human".

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When you have threads like these, any behaviors and/or gestures that people actually do IRL normally simply go out the window. Don't worry.

Please forgive me for reviving this thread, but there are a few things I feel I really need to say.

Firstly, I keep remembering this (which I wanted to respond to at the time, but the discussion was dying down and so I didn't want to restart it - but now it's bothering me since I think it was directed at me).

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Originally Posted by Nandina

But I can't help but find it funny that many of you are saying that no one has a problem with the suggestions that could be added to the character customization, but when people talk about the suggestions, you go on to say why those suggestions can't be implemented because "this is a fantasy game" or "there are no real life equivalents to Africa." Seems to me people are against the idea. I'm going to need for you all to remain consistent. Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

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I guess you are referring to my posts with the "there is no equivalent to Africa" quote, but I had no intention of saying African-looking characters shouldn't be in the game. Rather that currently, since there is no African-inspired culture and thus no need to build NPCs on that theme, then the lack of 'African-style options' in the character creator may be attributed to that.

As the discussion has gone on I think my own thoughts have shifted somewhat - as I posted earlier, there's also the concept of anime characters being drawn "without nationality" and that it's the context, rather than their visible features, that indicate what race they're supposed to be. I think it's possible that that is the mindset with which these characters are designed - and if we do encounter African Hyurans in future they are likely to continue to use the Midlander model as-is. It seems to me that it's the same argument as that very-quickly-dismissed point about the Pokémon characters that got posted some way back in the discussion - the characters are stylised (though in this case 'more realistically' and in a way we associate with one race more than others, even if it wasn't meant that way), and not necessarily intended to represent the full variety of real-world facial features.


On "including 'black features' in the character creator", I'm not against them being included, and never intended that to be my argument. What I've been meaning to say is that however much of a good idea it might be to add them, it seems they won't be added in (at least for Midlanders, as you are requesting) unless they redesign the character creator - which they may not be able to do, at least without taking a considerable amount of resources away from other aspects of the game.

There's a difference between (A) what they could have done better at the start, and (B) what can be changed in the creator as it currently exists. As it currently exists, it seems they cannot add to the available options on existing faces, and if they "swap out" a current option for something new, that would affect existing characters that have that appearance. Every NPC that uses it would need to have their settings updated.

Same goes for the skin colour palette - the character data doesn't store the colour itself, but a grid-reference location of the colour on the palette. The options could have been set up better at the beginning, but now they can't be changed without affecting every character that refers to that colour grid.


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More generally, I've had this discussion in mind as I've been playing the game. I have an alt character in the pre-Titan "Company of Heroes" quest arc, and went to Forgotten Springs - I had totally forgotten (or not paid attention to) how dark-skinned some of the U tribe are. (It's one of the reasons I'm back here typing this - little pangs of guilt every time U'odh Nunh was on-screen.) And without my preconceived thought of Eorzea being strictly Europe, I can see that maybe it does make more sense as an African-desert-inspired region. Again, I don't know enough of those countries enough to recognise it as any more than "a desert oasis setting" without ever having been truly clear on where those are from in the real world.

Also I came across a little more information on Meracydia - firstly it's looking more likely that it's meant to be Africa, because the description for 'sesame seeds' says that the plant is native to there, and (having consulted Wikipedia) in our world it's native to Africa and India.

The other thing I came across that it's possible (but lore is inconsistent) that the Miqo'te originated from Meracydia. Make of that what you will.


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The last thing I wanted to bring up, is that at the end of all this discussion and all the talk about "African features"... it's affected what I'm thinking about when seeing people, and not in a good way. Instead of seeing someone with dark skin and thinking "yes, that's a person, they're African", it's now "what are the shape of their features? Why am I staring at them and thinking about their nose?"

Maybe it's just how my brain works. But it bothers me on a deep level that this discussion you've started with the intent of promoting diversity, has instead set me off thinking about the specific features of a race instead of just seeing people as people.

At this point, lets all just agree to disagree about this topic, and let this thread sink into the oblivion. There are plenty of more constructive things to do, like farm...stuff....yeah.

Yeah, I’m wanting to let it sink. In fact I was wanting to left it sunk, but those things were bothering me enough that I had to respond for my own sake, and leaving it was going to be worse.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

At this point, lets all just agree to disagree about this topic, and let this thread sink into the oblivion. There are plenty of more constructive things to do, like farm...stuff....yeah.

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Tell that to the people in the parser thread too. That one is even longer than this!

Can a brotha get some braids?! How in the world is Raubahn such an important character and we've yet to get his outfit and hairstyle! Let me get my hands on that sweet braided ponytail so I can get rid of this joke afro they seem to think is sufficient enough.

Imagine wanting to make a character that you like and having the options to do so.

When certain people are so used to being catered to all the time, they can't fathom anyone else being dissatisfied.

I would love if they gave us more afro centric hairstyles but just overall more anf better customization options in general would be killer

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Originally Posted by Nandina

So, I've been tempted to use a Fantasia, and change from Miqo'te, so I started playing around with the character creation, and the lack of diversity is abysmal. I wanted to make a Hyur female, but I can't help but notice there isn't much wiggle room. There's only one cute braided mohawk style, and some dookie dreads. Where are the curly or even kinky hair styles? There are no flat twists, no cornrows, no box braids, no senegalese twists, no two strand twists, etc. I thought there was an afro option, but I didn't see that either. Under the nose options, there's are no truly wider options (I'm not saying the nose has to take up the entire face). There are no larger fuller lips. Skin tones run either cool or red, and there are absolutely no yellow undertones. Many of the little boxes on the skin color grid are virtually indistinguishable from the ones at least four spaces from them vertically, making them a waste. On brown skin tones, this makes the character appear ashy and in severe need of lotion. Skin tone alone is not diversity. Sure you can make your character Sudanese black, but if the nose and lips are slim and thin, is it really a black person? No.

Releasing multiple hairstyles is cute, but when are we going to get some new faces, noses, lips, and eyebrows that don't harken back to the late 90s and early 2000s? There's nothing wrong with a thicker brow. I bring this up, because there are many black and brown people who play this game, yet the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white. Ironically, I don't even see Asian faces despite this being a Japanese game. So you mean to tell me that my black and brown friends are good enough to receive a subscription from, but not good enough to have the character creation cater to them as well? I'm biracial (black mom, Russian dad) and while I'm not dark skinned I don't have thin lips and sharp facial features.

I already know some people are going to be in their feelings about this, and that's fine.

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I feel this issue deeply with auras. There faces are locked to horns causing ppl to refer to them as "face I, face II. Face III ect. Characters looking unique in this game takes legit talent bevause the devs are kind uninterested in fleshing character creation out

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Originally Posted by OurMom

As a black person, I know where you're coming from but this is one of those situations that won't be fixed in this game or any game like it. They already said they can't add more faces or it'll mess the game up. Since there can only be x amount of faces they're going to go the safe route.

Honestly I wouldn't want any of those features in a game like this, there's no slider and when we leave non black people to add defaults for that, it's just awful. Like in Archeage for example, the skin tone at the start of the NA launch was either tan or cartoony pitch black and there's no slider for the skin tone so we had to wait awhile before that was fixed(and the options still aren't great, several shades of pink 2 shades of brown).

However in games like BDO and Aion there's sliders so you can adjust your characters facial features and make it actually look black. Also maybe we should stop looking for other races to accommodate us and start making our own video games.

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I'm sorry but HUH? How is this game supposed to last 20 years with these sorts of limitations? It's not just faces but things like housing, glamour, etc. With all these technical limitations it seems crazy to me to not just move on to a new MMO in the long term.

Hopefully when Yoshi P said the 10 year thing he meant that FFXVII online (or whatever) will launch at some point between then but XIV will still be serviced until the end of the next 10 years.