Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

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Originally Posted by Neophyter

This site is where I got my info from. This one makes the most sense to me due to the increasing diminishing returns, but I never really tested this myself.

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It's 40%, 60%, 80%.

That page is so wrong it's making me cry. Someone fix it, as I'm too lazy to create an account.

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Originally Posted by Niryco

I have a thought, wouldn't fire IV under leylines be stronger than Thundercloud proc under leylines? So that means while leylines are up, would thunderproc be a dps lost?

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Stronger in a sense that you can fit on more spells before your TC drops. A full TC is still almost 200 potency more per GCD than F4 and Ley also drops the "cast time" of your TC proc, so they stay roughly the same.

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Originally Posted by Niryco

I have a thought, wouldn't fire IV under leylines be stronger than Thundercloud proc under leylines? So that means while leylines are up, would thunderproc be a dps lost?

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It's more complex than that. Often that thundercloud proc means dropping to UI early to refresh enochain, so the dps comparison is roughly the dps of one spell vs the other.

With ley lines, you should be able to fit in that thundercloud without dropping out of AF early, so the comparison is the dps of thundercloud vs the dps of your entire rotation, which is around 330 potency per GCD. Thundercloud beats that without any procs.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

It's 40%, 60%, 80%.

That page is so wrong it's making me cry. Someone fix it, as I'm too lazy to create an account.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It's 80%, just tested it to make sure nothing changed

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Surprising to see the lack of good info on the Interwebs.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Stronger in a sense that you can fit on more spells before your TC drops. A full TC is still almost 200 potency more per GCD than F4 and Ley also drops the "cast time" of your TC proc, so they stay roughly the same.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It's more complex than that. Often that thundercloud proc means dropping to UI early to refresh enochain, so the dps comparison is roughly the dps of one spell vs the other.

With ley lines, you should be able to fit in that thundercloud without dropping out of AF early, so the comparison is the dps of thundercloud vs the dps of your entire rotation, which is around 330 potency per GCD. Thundercloud beats that without any procs.

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Well i just did some simple checking and what you guys say is true, the pps gain from a single FIV vs thundercloud is negligible while in ley.

i have 694 ss and without ley lines, FIV has a cast time of 2.84 and recast of 2.37, thundercloud would be 2.37 recast.

on a standard cast, FIV would have 1.8 x 280 / 2.84 = 177.5pps
Thundercloud proc would be 390/2.37 = 164.6 pps

With ley lines , recast time is 2.01 for both and 2.41 for fireIV
FIV 1.8x280 /2.41 = 209.1
Thunder cloud proc 390/2.01 = 194

The difference in pps is abour 1 to 2. >.> oh well.

By the way, are you guys aware that even if you clip 6 DoTs of Thunder. Let's say you use a proc when you have 18 secs left on a mob, it's 710 Potency - 240 potency. It's equal 470 Potency and it is still better than the Fire IV 504 Potency?

470/2.5 = 188 PPS
504/3 = 168 PPS

In other words, a F3P is more PPS than Fire IV. A 2.5 seconds Flare is more PPS than Fire IV and this is one of the main reasons why I worked on different openers (which I should release the infos later today)

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Originally Posted by Niryco

Well i just did some simple checking and what you guys say is true, the pps gain from a single FIV vs thundercloud is negligible while in ley.

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Normal Rotation:

Code:

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        P        M        P*M        GCD               
F3        240        0.7        168        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F1        180        1.8        324        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
B3        240        0.7        168        1               
B4        280        1        280        1.2               
                        2956        9        328.4444444        P/GCD

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Rotation with Thundercloud instead of an F4, plus 4 ticks of DoT:

Code:

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        P        M        P*M        GCD               
F3        240        0.7        168        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F1        180        1.8        324        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
TC        550        1        550        1               
B3        240        0.7        168        1               
B4        280        1        280        1.2               
                        3002        8.8        341.1363636        P/GCD

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Rotation with Thundercloud and 4 ticks added in, which you should be able to do in Ley Lines:

Code:

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        P        M        P*M        GCD               
F3        240        0.7        168        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F1        180        1.8        324        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
TC        550        1        550        1               
B3        240        0.7        168        1               
B4        280        1        280        1.2               
                        3506        10        350.6        P/GCD

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You have 12 seconds to cast thundercloud, so you should be able to get 4 ticks in unless the mob is about to die.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Normal Rotation:

Code:

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        P        M        P*M        GCD               
F3        240        0.7        168        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F1        180        1.8        324        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
B3        240        0.7        168        1               
B4        280        1        280        1.2               
                        2956        9        328.4444444        P/GCD

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Rotation with Thundercloud instead of an F4, plus 4 ticks of DoT:

Code:

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        P        M        P*M        GCD               
F3        240        0.7        168        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F1        180        1.8        324        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
TC        550        1        550        1               
B3        240        0.7        168        1               
B4        280        1        280        1.2               
                        3002        8.8        341.1363636        P/GCD

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Rotation with Thundercloud and 4 ticks added in, which you should be able to do in Ley Lines:

Code:

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        P        M        P*M        GCD               
F3        240        0.7        168        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F1        180        1.8        324        1               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
F4        280        1.8        504        1.2               
TC        550        1        550        1               
B3        240        0.7        168        1               
B4        280        1        280        1.2               
                        3506        10        350.6        P/GCD

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You have 12 seconds to cast thundercloud, so you should be able to get 4 ticks in unless the mob is about to die.

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you are such a hardworking popoto taru thank you :D

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

By the way, are you guys aware that even if you clip 6 DoTs of Thunder. Let's say you use a proc when you have 18 secs left on a mob, it's 710 Potency - 240 potency. It's equal 470 Potency and it is still better than the Fire IV 504 Potency?

470/2.5 = 188 PPS
504/3 = 168 PPS

In other words, a F3P is more PPS than Fire IV. A 2.5 seconds Flare is more PPS than Fire IV and this is one of the main reasons why I worked on different openers (which I should release the infos later today)

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but i thought you said you rather a rotation not be based around rng, let alone procs.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before. What is the general consensus about BIS. This is what i have come up with i keep hearing from people in my static that crit should be higher than det. Can anyone comment on my bis or propose some changes.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RFC1

If crit proves to be higher than det, then the Gordian Gloves are better than the Goetia ones. I'd prefer the Gordian Gloves too because 532 crit is awfully low imo.

My gloves will be chosen by rng. If they drop until I got the BiS esoteric gear I'll take Gordian, elsewise Goetia ...

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

By the way, are you guys aware that even if you clip 6 DoTs of Thunder. Let's say you use a proc when you have 18 secs left on a mob, it's 710 Potency - 240 potency. It's equal 470 Potency and it is still better than the Fire IV 504 Potency?

470/2.5 = 188 PPS
504/3 = 168 PPS

In other words, a F3P is more PPS than Fire IV. A 2.5 seconds Flare is more PPS than Fire IV and this is one of the main reasons why I worked on different openers (which I should release the infos later today)

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Looked at your guide just now while you're editing in the new openers. The 3rd is basically the one being used for a while in our fc outside of maybe a few differences.

I've been going QS > Sharp> F1 as pulled> Eno> F3P > Ley + RS > F4 > F1 > pot > F4 x 3> Swift> Flare >Convert > F4 > rotation as normal going into UI taking into account mana ticks for which thunder to use or if to use it at all etc.

This is how I do it in A3S or Faust for example:
QS > Sharp > Ley > F3 as pulled > Eno > F1 > RS + pot > F4 x 3 > F3P > Swift > F4 > Convert > F4 > F4 >

Not sure if this is really the best possible but especially in A3S does it work quite well .. but not perfectly ..

Is Kuroyasha's rotation really better? Have to try it out ..

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

By the way, are you guys aware that even if you clip 6 DoTs of Thunder. Let's say you use a proc when you have 18 secs left on a mob, it's 710 Potency - 240 potency. It's equal 470 Potency and it is still better than the Fire IV 504 Potency?

470/2.5 = 188 PPS
504/3 = 168 PPS

In other words, a F3P is more PPS than Fire IV. A 2.5 seconds Flare is more PPS than Fire IV and this is one of the main reasons why I worked on different openers (which I should release the infos later today)

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Honestly, not trying to be rude here but I've posted about a billion times that you have to consider F4 + current DoT ticks rather than just F4's potency vs TC's current potency if clipped. I'm not sure if you consider that irrelevant but no one seems to care about or consider this fact.

Something like F4 vs TC being X potency at a specific time is only relevant when you must use TC or let it drop, and usually by then the DoT portion of your old Thunder is low enough that it's a gain anyway and you don't have to worry about it being better or worse than F4 at 18s left on the timer. When it comes to multi-DoTing it's more relevant, like A1S, but even then it's still something you wanna not do unless it's do or die if you can F4 on a high Thunder duration opponent with no other options.

Gotta emphasize I'm not trying to be rude or mean or whatnot here but I'm just getting annoyed when people talk about this as if Thunder's current DoT doesn't make F4 the equivalent of a boatload more damage than what TC's clipping will give you if you clip really high up. If people see this 18s rule, they're gonna think they should literally give up a F4 to do it at that point, and that's not good at all.

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Originally Posted by Primm

This is how I do it in A3S or Faust for example:
QS > Sharp > Ley > F3 as pulled > Eno > F1 > RS + pot > F4 x 3 > F3P > Swift > F4 > Convert > F4 > F4 >

Not sure if this is really the best possible but especially in A3S does it work quite well .. but not perfectly ..

Is Kuroyasha's rotation really better? Have to try it out ..

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I didn't come up with it. I just used what a few of our blms (le roy, blackcat, charmin) came up with a while ago and changed when I popped potion to give a little room to use a f3p if i got a second from the 2nd f1 while fitting rest under the pot.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

snip

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Yeah, I've been doing about the same for quite a while (same pot placement too), but with leylines on prepull after sharpcast when I can. Depending on connection, with leylines' longer animation time it might not be possible to fit both it and RS in the GCD of the F3P. The reason I like Sharp F1 openers is simply the amount of MP used, with no gambling on an MP tick after Blizzard 3 (where you don't even have enough MP for Blizzard 1). Instead, you're gambling on the second F1 to proc to do a bit extra damage before your Flare. Since the MP lines up nicely, you can easily do Thunder > Blizzard 4 if you want to right after Blizzard 3, and never actually stop casting.

That being said, F3 openers are nice for fights where you have to move 3-4 casts in, while F1 openers are nice for fights where you either don't have to move at all, or have to move in the time you cast swift flare. Openers should be tailored to encounters, just like always.

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Originally Posted by BlackcatChen

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Ohhh snap blackcat posting on official forums?! lol

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Honestly, not trying to be rude here but I've posted about a billion times that you have to consider F4 + current DoT ticks rather than just F4's potency vs TC's current potency if clipped. I'm not sure if you consider that irrelevant but no one seems to care about or consider this fact.

Something like F4 vs TC being X potency at a specific time is only relevant when you must use TC or let it drop, and usually by then the DoT portion of your old Thunder is low enough that it's a gain anyway and you don't have to worry about it being better or worse than F4 at 18s left on the timer. When it comes to multi-DoTing it's more relevant, like A1S, but even then it's still something you wanna not do unless it's do or die if you can F4 on a high Thunder duration opponent with no other options.

Gotta emphasize I'm not trying to be rude or mean or whatnot here but I'm just getting annoyed when people talk about this as if Thunder's current DoT doesn't make F4 the equivalent of a boatload more damage than what TC's clipping will give you if you clip really high up. If people see this 18s rule, they're gonna think they should literally give up a F4 to do it at that point, and that's not good at all.

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My point was that Fire IV PPS is lower because it's a 3 seconds cast. Using Thundercloud when you have your dot at 18 secs is a DPS increase. It is the same as using Swift Flare Convert on an opener. Also, a proc by default allows you to be more mobile.

Swift Flare vs Fire IV
260/2.5 > 280/3
104 PPS > 93.33 PPS

Fire 3 Proc vs Fire IV
240/2.5 > 280/3
96 PPS > 93.33 PPS

So you are actually wrong by overestimating Fire IV. The same mistake that led me to the conclusion Sharpcast Fire 1 with my current Spell Speed is better than the 6 Fire IV opener I used to use all the time. I still use the 6 Fire IV opener on A3S and it's only because this opener has the advantage to be more mobile at the beginning with the Swiftcast.

If you have good Thundercloud management, you'll use 1 proc in your Astral Fire and 1 proc in your Umbral Ice but in certain situations, multiple procs is handy for movement.

Here's the updates :

http://solitude.guildwork.com/_/aikaals-blm-guide

Video

In your guide, why is the middle opener's F3 only at 192 potency when the first opener's F3 is at 240 potency?

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

My point was that Fire IV PPS is lower because it's a 3 seconds cast. Using Thundercloud when you have your dot at 18 secs is a DPS increase. It is the same as using Swift Flare Convert on an opener. Also, a proc by default allows you to be more mobile.

Swift Flare vs Fire IV
260/2.5 > 280/3
104 PPS > 93.33 PPS

Fire 3 Proc vs Fire IV
240/2.5 > 280/3
96 PPS > 93.33 PPS

So you are actually wrong by overestimating Fire IV. The same mistake that led me to the conclusion Sharpcast Fire 1 with my current Spell Speed is better than the 6 Fire IV opener I used to use all the time. I still use the 6 Fire IV opener on A3S and it's only because this opener has the advantage to be more mobile at the beginning with the Swiftcast.

If you have good Thundercloud management, you'll use 1 proc in your Astral Fire and 1 proc in your Umbral Ice but in certain situations, multiple procs is handy for movement.

Here's the updates :

http://solitude.guildwork.com/_/aikaals-blm-guide

Video

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PPS of TC doesn't mean much when you consider the DoT is tied into the TC that you are destroying to get it. For reference I am only talking about TC vs F4 (and I guess F3P to some extent), not F4 vs anything else.

PPS of TC, raw: 284
PPS of F4: 168
PPS of TC at 18s, taking into account you are losing the previous DoTs (which should actually only be 2 ticks at this point, not 3): 184 PPS

By that reasoning you'd think, yes, TC at 18s is "stronger" than F4. It's much simpler to look at it as potency though. 504 + anywhere from 40 to 320 potency vs 390 + anywhere from 40 to 320 potency, speed of the spell be damned. At 18s, or two ticks, that's 504 + 240 = 744 potency by doing that F4. 390 + 80 potency = 470 potency for doing a TC. Even doing their PPS, it's 248 vs 188. Jump that down to 15s, 3 ticks, and it's 504 + 200 = 704 for F4, 390 + 120 = 510 for TC, PPS is 234 vs 204. Don't you see what I mean when I say doing a TC at 18s (or even 15s) is less potency and PPS than just doing a F4? Especially if you can (and 99% of the time if you're stationary, you can) throttle the TC to a point where the potencies are flipped around.

Mobility is supreme of course, that can't be argued.

Edit: fixed F4 PPS

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

.snip

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It sounds like you're trying to tie in the remaining Thunder DoT to F4 when doing your calculations. Doesn't that mean you should tie in the new DoT applied for Thundercloud as well? So instead of Thundercloud + DoT ticked, it should be Thundercloud + DoT ticked + new DoT that will tick.

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Originally Posted by Neophyter

In your guide, why is the middle opener's F3 only at 192 potency when the first opener's F3 is at 240 potency?

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Damn, I made a small mistake. Thanks for pointing ;o it doesn't change anything overall really but it's good to fix. I'll update.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Snip.

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TC with 18 sec DoT is equal to 710 - 240 = 470 Potency.
Fire IV is 504 Potency

470/2.5 = 188 PPS
504/3 = 168 PPS

Where are you getting 201.6 PPS on F4?

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Originally Posted by BlackcatChen

snip

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Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen.

I had to.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Damn, I made a small mistake. Thanks for pointing ;o it doesn't change anything overall really but it's good to fix. I'll update.



TC with 18 sec DoT is equal to 710 - 240 = 470 Potency.
Fire IV is 504 Potency

470/2.5 = 188 PPS
504/3 = 168 PPS

Where are you getting 201.6 PPS on F4?

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Good question, you are correct. Not sure what I plugged in for that one.

Still doesn't change the DoT tick + F4 potencies I'm getting all bent out of shape about, the whole point is, 18s TC not being better than F4 because it's as if you're saying the current DoT wouldn't exist on the F4's. It's clipping a DoT with a DoT at a point where instead of using filler that does less damage, you're doing a DoT and missing out on DoT + filler. Plain and simple.

This is like arguing to use Bio at 9s left instead of Ruin + letting Bio live out its life.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Damn, I made a small mistake. Thanks for pointing ;o it doesn't change anything overall really but it's good to fix. I'll update.



TC with 18 sec DoT is equal to 710 - 240 = 470 Potency.
Fire IV is 504 Potency

470/2.5 = 188 PPS
504/3 = 168 PPS

Where are you getting 201.6 PPS on F4?

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Anytime. Plus, I think Sleigh accidentally divided 504 by 2.5 seconds and not 3 seconds

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Good question, you are correct. Not sure what I plugged in for that one.

Still doesn't change the DoT tick + F4 potencies I'm getting all bent out of shape about, the whole point is, 18s TC not being better than F4 because it's as if you're saying the current DoT wouldn't exist on the F4's. It's clipping a DoT with a DoT at a point where instead of using filler that does less damage, you're doing a DoT and missing out on DoT + filler. Plain and simple.

This is like arguing to use Bio at 9s left instead of Ruin + letting Bio live out its life.

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I completely agree with that xD

I made a small section you shouldn't use 2 TC procs in your Astral Fire. It's better to use 1 proc per session of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice and if you do it this way you'll never clip with a odd 18 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

the whole point is, 18s TC not being better than F4

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That's about where the dps is about even, but it's not when you should be using it. Unless the mob dies within 20 seconds or so, the thundercloud proc will always be a dps boost if you use it during any of the following times:

• After thunder has worn off the mob
• When used on a mob without your thunder on it to begin with
• When it doesn't mean you have to give up a F4
• When you have to move for mechanics
• When the thundercloud timer is under 3 seconds

I feel kinda like I must be missing something basic and fundamental as to why we'd ever want to Swiftcast Flare over F4 on a single target.
In the second rotation in the video, assuming you get a Firestarter proc to cover your SC, both would be cast in the same 1 GCD window and F4 would have 20 more base potency than Flare in that ~2.4 second timeframe.

While flare gains more from the Swiftcast(-1.5 seconds give or take) than F4(-.5 seconds) in the end that SCFlare GCD would still be doing less potency than a SCF4 given they're both in the same GCD.
...I think. Is there some obvious modifier I'm forgetting or not seeing?

Question why does Blm gear have so much accuracy its really annoying :(

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Originally Posted by derplolherp

I feel kinda like I must be missing something basic and fundamental as to why we'd ever want to Swiftcast Flare over F4 on a single target.
In the second rotation in the video, assuming you get a Firestarter proc to cover your SC, both would be cast in the same 1 GCD window and F4 would have 20 more base potency than Flare in that ~2.4 second timeframe.

While flare gains more from the Swiftcast(-1.5 seconds give or take) than F4(-.5 seconds) in the end that SCFlare GCD would still be doing less potency than a SCF4 given they're both in the same GCD.
...I think. Is there some obvious modifier I'm forgetting or not seeing?

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Flare gives AF stacks whereas F4 doesn't.

At least i think that's the reason why you want to flare over fire 4.

EDIT: okay, I take that back. The swift flare could be due to mana issues and the fact that you don't have enough mana for a F4 but have enough for a flare.

Aikaal, do you have a video of that 1.3k A1S ? That's pretty impressive.

I'd like that too :P Usually I lose my enochian somehow during the add phase in A1S. That already destroys my dps :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by derplolherp

I feel kinda like I must be missing something basic and fundamental as to why we'd ever want to Swiftcast Flare over F4 on a single target.
In the second rotation in the video, assuming you get a Firestarter proc to cover your SC, both would be cast in the same 1 GCD window and F4 would have 20 more base potency than Flare in that ~2.4 second timeframe.

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Because even if you don't get proc and you lose time using Swiftcast, this scenario happens 3 times out of 5. Your average PPS with buffs is 5 lower than Fire IV. A respectable lost to always have MP for T1 / B4 after B3.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Aikaal, do you have a video of that 1.3k A1S ? That's pretty impressive.

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I didn't record myself :( All I can say is I used my CDs after the second jump and we decided to ignore adds cause we had like 5% left to down on both bosses and when it came to me to cast Swiftcast Flare, it clipped 2 adds so it should be lower. Adds spawn the same time I flare so I didn't really have control over it x.x There was no point to break my rotation just so I wouldn't clip 2 adds not to damage them lol

I'm more impress by 1220 DPS in A3S without Bard :[

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I didn't record myself :( All I can say is I used my CDs after the second jump and we decided to ignore adds cause we had like 5% left to down on both bosses and when it came to me to cast Swiftcast Flare, it clipped 2 adds so it should be lower. Adds spawn the same time I flare so I didn't really have control over it x.x There was no point to break my rotation just so I wouldn't clip 2 adds not to damage them lol

I'm more impress by 1220 DPS in A3S without Bard :[

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Oh yeah, I agree with the flaring part. In fact..I don't see why you shouldn't flare every add set if you wait for the melee to hit it first. It's something I am gonna try next week :P

Also just out of curiosity, roughly how much DPS increase did you gain from i198 > i208 ?

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Oh yeah, I agree with the flaring part. In fact..I don't see why you shouldn't flare every add set if you wait for the melee to hit it first. It's something I am gonna try next week :P

Also just out of curiosity, roughly how much DPS increase did you gain from i198 > i208 ?

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Mmm I,m iLevel 206 but from that iLevel from iLevel 180 I went on dummy from 1180 to 1450. That's about 270 dmg for 26 iLevel and I would say 100 DPS.

Mmmm those adds spawned when bosses had about 2% each so we ignored them but they still spawned when I flared xD

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Because even if you don't get proc and you lose time using Swiftcast, this scenario happens 3 times out of 5. Your average PPS with buffs is 5 lower than Fire IV. A respectable lost to always have MP for T1 / B4 after B3.

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Ah ha! I knew there had to be something and was going nuts trying to find it. :o

Anyone have suggestions as to what to spend eso's on this week?? I already have Weapon, Chest, and Ring.

Do you raid, and if so, are you or will you be clearing A3S in the near future? I think pants are a good buy if you're not getting A3S pants soon.

Im not raiding consistently, so definitely not gonna be getting AS3 pants anytime soon soon.

What CC's from a BLMs kit work on the Tornado Adds? Summoners/Scholars being Miasma II for slows. I take it sleep doesn't work, so it's just controlling Blizzards? Wondering what you BLM experts do so we can slightly refine our strat, as our Summoner is now a Black Mage for A3S.

Pretty sure Lethargy also works.