Alright, god, fine. Here's why you're wrong line by line:Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
Subjective. Timers are fun to me. Things can be well designed without timers sure, but BLM is well designed now with timers as has been outlined already.
People have detailed a solution to the Umbral Soul spam already and you despising it is subjective. I don't mind spamming US at all.
Read above, Enochian change is only a significant buff if you dropped your timer twice within 15 seconds.
The structure isn't garbage just because you say it is. It's not convoluted just because you refuse to understand. The impact on the skill ceiling is ever-present because respecting the timer is a core skill of BLM. Your statement that they don't effect the highest end players shows your lack of understanding of the job.
BLM with timers already adds new mechanics every expansion that create novel ways to approach the core gameplay, keeping timers demonstrably doesn't impact this.
Timers don't stop being a mechanic because you say so. They are by definition a gameplay mechanic.
You're asking for more stringent and boring mechanics than a timer. Endorsing for the removal of Sharpcast doesn't help your case. BLM doesn't need to be like the other classes.
The levelling experience is disappointing until level 60, though recently alleviated by making Aspect Mastery a level 1 trait so they are aware of the issue.
See US 7 lines above.
He didn't say exactly that.
The cycle is reinforced and enhanced already by timers as explained by Ferrinus.
Screwing up a rotation costs you damage. More at 11. A rotation that punishes you for screwing up isn't an inherently bad thing. I look for punishment and challenge when I'm job shopping.
And the last 3 epitomize "design the job around me because I personally don't like timers".
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01-28-2022, 04:30 PMtearagion
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01-28-2022, 04:31 PMIruruCeceNo, it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
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01-28-2022, 05:17 PMVentVanitasLike what? A bank and spend gauge like Ninki/Kenki/Chakra/Beast/Blood? A phase change where you do more damage like Hypercharge/Enshroud/Life of the Dragon/Inner Release? A follow up attack like Starfall Dance/Blast Arrow/Ogi Namakiri?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
You're giving SE way too much credit if you think they'd be able to replace AF/UI timers with anything new or interesting. -
01-28-2022, 05:28 PMTaranokThat's not an argument and offers nothing to the discussion. Or should we bring back BotD and Greased Lightning, which were likewise holding their respective classes back? Should we reduce the threshold of RDM's mana disparity system back to SB/ShB days? I don't see anyone complaining about the baseline level of RDM being easier to play. The class is at the best it's been when they lowered the skill ceiling. In fact, to keep parity with the old system, it would have to be reduced to a differential of 18.75 mana, meaning it got about 50% easier to run the same rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
You're not even engaging the point, just saying: "No you," and being done with it.
You're not even trying to come up with a mechanic. Hell, I couldn't think of Masterful Blitz, and it's the first time Monk has had a real mechanic that wasn't just dancing around the boss forever for no real reason. I've already suggested ways to move back on this several times in this very thread. Ways to keep the current rotation while removing the timers. Ways that maintain the current rotation while removing timers. And that was without trying to add a new mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
The idea I've floated around internally amongst my friends is that if you cast X number of a given spell, you are allowed to cast Y spell. Such as casting fire 4 twice enables high fire 4 to be cast once. This can have failure mechanics added back in, like making it if you cast anything else you lose the cast of high fire 4.
Go on, try, use your imagination instead of assuming that the only thing that's good is what we have, right now. -
01-28-2022, 07:00 PMIruruCeceThat's all your stance rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
"Timers/positionals aren't mechanics because I say so, and we can have better because I say so!" doesn't actually mean you've said anything truthful or meaningful. There isn't anything to be gained with arguing with someone who decides that a mechanic isn't a mechanic simply because you hate it. You've already made up your mind, and you've also wasted the time of more patient and knowledgeable people by spending an incredible amount of time drafting up posts that can be boiled down to "Nuh uh!"
"the first time Monk has had a real mechanic" was Chakra, Greased Lightning, and it's positionals, which all combined at one point to make the job feel distinctly what it was from ARR to ShB. You don't have to like a mechanic for it to be a mechanic. If nothing else, Blitz is half baked nonsense that borrows the concept of jutsus from NIN, which did it better, while also serving as a lame excuse to recycle OGCD animations that were also stripped away from the job. -
01-28-2022, 07:53 PMFerrinusI don't really care about the magnitude of the potency loss. If it's too big it can just be massaged with numbers tweaks (a trait that increases Fire 1's potency once you've got Fire 4, faster cast times or higher damage on F3/B3 when you aren't in any aspect, something like that) - but I also don't particularly think it's too big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
I genuinely don't think the flexible, improvisation-heavy nature of playing Black Mage could be preserved without some kind of time pressure. In another world, instead of being a timer on your job gauge it might be a timer on the enemy, like they're going to be vulnerable to fire for the next 5s, then vulnerable to thunder for the next 5s after that, but then the next vulnerability will be totally random, etc, and you have to try to squeeze in the appropriate spells before your window elapses or do other on-the-spot alterations to your plan as fuses burn out and procs go off, but if there isn't some kind of window closing on you regardless of what you yourself are doing the gameplay's not going to be preserved with any fidelity.Quote:
To add this in since I do have more to say on this: I'm not asking, and have never asked, for timers to be removed with nothing to fill in the void. There are numerous things the timers accomplish that should be preserved. My question to you on this is: What could be added that maintains this flexibility and additional punishment you like, without having the timers?
(A funny stopgap would be, instead of a timer, you literally lose MP while moving when in Astral mode)
Relatedly, I think you're actually overstating the extent to which Monk has been freed from its timer, because while it doesn't have GL upkeep anymore it does have to watch the expiration of both Disciplined Fist and Demolish, and those two status effects appear in different places and have slightly different durations and you'll lose more and more damage if you don't play around them. However, keeping up Disciplined Fist isn't nearly as fun as keeping up Enochian; there's no equivalent of the last-second swiftcast Despair. -
01-28-2022, 08:05 PMFerrinus
I also want to note that while I've long thought BLM should learn equivalents of F4 and B4 earlier in its level progression, that kind of becomes less and less important as the level cap grows and all jobs get their stuff spread later and later. Like, BLM 50 is still probably more indicative of your future experience than RPR 50. 60 is when MNK unlocks Blitz, etc.
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01-28-2022, 08:20 PMPyurBlueNo BLM can't have anything else, and in the context of FF14, the timer is fun. You can't get around the fact that whether it's liked or not is subjective and people do disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
The challenge will be severely diminished without the timer. It is the timer that provides the challenge because it is the only thing that forces a BLM player to really get creative with the rotation. Without the restriction of the timer, all you have to do is press your buttons in order. It's true that you may still have to deal with interrupted casts, but they become trivial because once whatever is keeping you from casting is gone, you just go back to pressing whatever button you need to without thought. What else is there to do?Quote:
They are not necessary to flesh out the class. Even in a world absent timers, they would still be pretty well and truly challenged in their role, as is, because the class spends the overwhelming majority of its time sitting still with cast bars.
Umbral Soul could definitely be better, but that has nothing to do with the timer and everything to do with US itself.Quote:
This isn't where the timer issue stops though. The simple fact is it's a major drag on the quality of black mage itself, and like Greased Lightning, it's a poor mechanic of the class. That is, I absolutely despise chain casting umbral soul between dungeon pulls. Every single class that has to do something like this has had the mechanic removed because there is no world where chain casting an ability between pulls or needing to set up literal macros to manage the timers during downtime is fun.
We're suggesting how to fix US without making unneeded and detrimental class changes.Quote:
This is true in boss transitions where you have full control. Chain casting umbral soul is not a fun mechanic. And everyone here has suggested: "Just create a way to lock timers." You're creating mechanics to shore up a badly designed mechanic, when you can remove a bad mechanic and create newer mechanics and bring the class in a new direction for the first time since Heavensward. No, really, the class has played more or less the same as it has since heavensward, disregarding explicitly the change from the garbage mechanic that was HE enochian.
The challenge of the timer is that you need to optimize your rotation on the fly. Without the timer the class becomes as simple as it's base rotation because that never needs to change outside of dealing with the last sliver of boss HP. Removing the timer dulls the class. I also have never found BLM to be frustrating in new content, even back when I was a new player. It's the class I use most often when going into new content blind.Quote:
Beyond this, due to the garbage structure created by the timers, the class is a convoluted mess to learn and overly frustrating to fit into new content. The timers are the challenge you overcome to even play BLM as intended, they have next to no impact on the skill ceiling outside of explicitly managing when you despair right before a boss jumps so you don't waste time/excess mana on spells like Blizzard 4 right before a boss jumps. That is the extent of the timer's impact on the ceiling, right there. That is the only impact it has because timers really aren't a skill ceiling mechanic. Which means, if we remove them, the ceiling, the difficulty of the class, would still be there.
BLM doesn't need to change. It's fun as it is. Leaving it alone is the better alternative to the change that you are requesting, at least for many. What you want is a new class. That's fine with me, but please don't ruin my game just to get the caster you want.Quote:
And if you, simply, get rid of a garbage-tier mechanic like the timers, then a new mechanic can actually be added. Monk didn't have a real mechanic until they removed greased lightning and added Masterful Blitz. And the class was being held back in terms of player enjoyment because of the sheer amount of positionals it had. Of those 2, Greased wasn't a real mechanic, it was a gatekeeper. Positionals were a mechanic, and we can argue until we're blue in the face over whether they're fun or not, but sometimes trimming something a minority loves helps bring the class as a whole to a better place.
Learning different rotation is unavoidable in FF14. BLM may be hit particularly bad, but again timers have nothing to do with it. PLD gets magic casts that are only good for attacking outside of melee, to being rigidly locked into their rotation as DPS tools, to being healing tools later on. Not to mention they have to deal with a DoT that breaks the rules of DoT's for some 8-10 levels, I forget how much, and outpowers their not DoT combo finisher. WHM enforces GCD healing from the start when endgame healing is completely the opposite, OGCD dominated. Even when you get to high levels, it still has its primary instant AoE heal locked all the way to 76, which really changes how it feels to heal raidwides.Quote:
I want to see the class have a leveling experience that doesn't require every fresh player of the class to relearn BLM 20 different times because of how wildly the class changes. The class is legitimately held back by its ancient design, and it's high time the class actually got a real, engaging mechanic than procs I literally ignore because T3 procs more often than not, and Sharpcast has a cooldown so short I can always use it for paradox. And the timers, those stupid timers, completely drag on the class itself to the point where the class feels absolutely awful to play.
The timer doesn't make BLM a mess to level, and if the BLM level experience is to be improved, low level BLM needs to be more like high level BLM. EW partially addressed this by making a 72 trait level 1 or whatever. US's level should be drastically reduced as well, and then BLM just needs some kind of stand in for F4 at level 30 the latest.
I'm curious, do you enjoy sub 50 BLM? The timer may as well not exist when it's constantly refreshed, yet the class is at it's most boring, at least in my opinion. The only interesting thing in the rotation is the occasional F3 proc, but they are one of the worst proc rewards in the game because of how little time you have to process them. F1 spam is subject to ABC, but that doesn't really make it interesting at all. ABC is just the nature of the game, not a mechanic that you build a class around.Quote:
Provided you reinforce the structure of AAA-B-AAA-C in any of its forms in any way, the class will be just fine without the timers. The timers are not necessary to this. Even without timers, even if the class was exclusively fire 4 spam, it would still be the single most punished class in the game simply from interrupting a single spell, because that is the primary difficulty challenge of black mage. The sooner BLM mains understand this, the sooner BLM can actually do something different than being literally the same class since Heavensward.
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01-29-2022, 03:02 AMFerrinus
It's also worth restating that reinforcing the structure of AAA-B-AAA-C would be bad. The beauty of BLM is that you are constantly changing up, stretching, or shrinking that structure in response to, you guessed it, the timer.
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01-29-2022, 12:16 PMVentVanitasSo in other words... a follow up attack? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
Ignoring how rigid it makes AF phase (because the two people above me have already said it better), I fail to see how this mechanic would require removing timers or why this particular suggestion would even need to exist on BLM in first place, because such things already exist in the game without needing to be a job central mechanic/gauge.
Nah, I don't feel like it because what we have works. If I want to spice up my BLM gameplay then I'll just swap jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok