But we're not heavy lifter.
If you take a look at logs, you'll see that it always follow this trend, at low percentile we're below Summoner and always slightly ahead of RDM
Then we slowly catch up and beat both of them by up to 500-1000 DPS depending on the fight and then, once you reach really high ozrf, RDM catches up and is only a few hundred DPS behind us.. however at this point we're talking 200-300 DPS behind 25.5k rdps... Barely above 1% more DPS.
We're not heavy lifter.
I wouldn't mind if we were not marginally above the others but thats not the case. Heck at extremely high perf we're actually behind... not by much mind you.
But the reality is that a RDM will do the same dps as a BLM but also bring spammable rez.
And the very reason it is the case is because everytime redmage are behind, like more than 1%, they complain that they can't properly contribute DPS and that they shouldn't be punished for a rez they don't use during a kill.
You then have an endless cycle, if BLM are too above, (and too can be as small as 5%) there are complains and the other jobs get buffed. If BLM isn't first they get buffed until they are mathematically first.. but what does it matter to do 25400 rdps when the RDM does 25250.
I don't mind having no rez if it means being an actual heavy lifter. But if heavy lift means between 0.2% ~ 1% more deeps at any perf above gray... Then I feel robbed of that *big nukes* identity.
Because it doesnt feel big at all.
It just feel averaged, and homogenised
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11-14-2021, 09:30 AMSylvain
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11-14-2021, 05:39 PMLyth
I don't think that you should ever automatically do more dps just because you decided to pick a particular job. That's a mediocre mindset. If you're going to do more damage on a job, it should be reflected in the performance distribution (i.e. a more punishing job where most players underperform except at the top percentiles vs. a more evenly distributed performance). There will always be players looking for more challenging gameplay, and you should give them the option of that risk/reward tradeoff. You want to do more damage, then ask for opportunities to earn it. Ask for more difficult gameplay in exchange for more damage, I'm fine with that.
You can't trade-off damage and utility because they're unrelated. The real problem that this thread highlights is the power of raises, and there really should be a hard cap on their uses, even if only on harder difficulty settings for fights. But that's also not an opportunity or excuse to go begging for freebies. -
11-14-2021, 08:48 PMBhearilIf you do that then the "easy" jobs WILL be marginated and reduced to being "noob player jobs" because a decent player could bring much more with a high ceiling job. It would be the original Rez Mage meme back all over again (okay we learned the fight now switch job we no longer need it). SE have stated that how difficult a job is will never relate to have a better performance than the others, just having a higher ceiling as a matter of flavour, and thats the reason why between jobs of the same type theres usual a minor difference in total contribution besides when they screw up with a job *cough* Bard*cough*...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
SE basically consider personal damage+ support skills(be raid damage buffs or otherwise) as a total contribution of that job, so if you have more support, you have less damage and viceversa.
You can see that on other games like LoL: Lee Sin originally was considered a very high ceiling champion so he was really bad on low levels while being outright broken in high levels of play which meant that he was used everywhere once you reached a certain level of play and was permabanned due to how much it overperformed against other champions. In the end was hit with the nerf bat several times on row and is still a very solid pick if you know how to play with him
Heck you can even see that in FF11 as well where if you had the "wrong" job you had to literally beg to be taken in a party to level due to huge differences in performance compared with the "meta" jobs.
Having X job outperform others once you get good enough because is hard to "git gud" with it is often a surefire recipe to get a balance disaster in your hands -
11-14-2021, 09:41 PMSaberMaxwell
I put forth my suggestion once more: to compromise, make verraise ineligible for dualcast, or make it a 60 second cool down.
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11-14-2021, 11:33 PMBhearilPersonally i would love for them to get rid of the "RDM can spam rez hur durr" because its a huge resource hog and having something in case your entire grup is terribad is not something nice to haveQuote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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11-15-2021, 12:32 AMLythYet that's also what's being asked for here. 'RDM/SMN have access to a raise. Either give BLM a raise, or give BLM more damage output irrespective of skill.' I think that's an incredibly bad way of doing things. Players made the same utility vs. damage output argument for WAR in Stormblood, and the result was not enjoyable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhearil
Is it not fair to have one player outperform others once they get 'good enough'? I think that you're always going to see differences in performance come out of player skill. It's a strange misconception that this community specifically has that different jobs shouldn't cater to different skill levels. That doesn't automatically mean that you're not going to be competitive as a 99th percentile player on a more accessible job. It just means that you're going to be a statistically rarer occurrence. It's like bringing a turret into an FPS game. It's a really popular choice in low skill matches where nobody can aim. But once people figure out how to shoot your turret, you have to be more clever if you want to progress into higher skill levels with that playstyle. -
11-15-2021, 11:12 AMMaxilor
No, please don't get rid of DualCast - Rez on RDM. It's one of the few unique things that really sets it apart.
Sure it's a meme, but it always makes me feel confidant I know I can pull a group out of the jaws of defeat and when I actually do I feel like a real Hero. (Even if I don't get any Comms for it) -
11-15-2021, 11:22 AMSaberMaxwellBut it's not supposed to be better at White Magic than White Mage. Getting rid of Dualcast Raise or putting it on the 60 second cooldown maintains the job's flavor, and in fact one might argue improves upon it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxilor
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11-15-2021, 11:36 AMMaxilorBut it's not better than WHM. Otherwise my Verholy would be an AOE Stun.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Dualcasting and the Melee Rotation are RDMs flavor and getting rid of Dualcast + Raise would just take away from what makes it so unique for arbitrary reasons.
RDM is fine the way it is.
Also, I don't see ASTs crying that DNC gives better damage buffs. -
11-15-2021, 11:53 AMSaberMaxwellWe're not talking about Verholy. We're talking about Verraise. Right now, Verraise is better in nearly every way, shape and form than Raise is due to the Red Mage's ability to dualcast it. Red Mage's flavor, it's lore that people keep arguing over (though admittedly, not you specifically, yours was just a comment I latched onto) is that it can use White Magic, but it isn't as good at it as White Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxilor
Dancers flavor and lore has nothing to do with Astrologian, either. Red Mage explicitly uses less potent/useful White Magic than White Mage.
In a vacuum, Red Mage is fine, but Red Mage isn't in a vacuum.