I don't think the tempering part is explicitly said out loud, come to think of it. It's more of a theory based on how Emet-Selch admitted to being tempered by Zodiark, and the player character being immune to being tempered because of Hydaelyns blessing.
But yes, we will see what happens happens. Zenos and Fandaniel will clearly have big roles to play, but I think it's too early to assume we know where the story is going and what the central conflict and ending will be. They showed some serious writing chops in Shadowbringers with how they filled out gaps and added nuance, so given that the same writers will write Endwalker I have faith they'll write something good and not terribly trite and obvious.
Tired of Zenos (spoilers)
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03-11-2021, 01:49 AMMarsAstro
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03-11-2021, 03:48 AMLauront
It's worth noting that there is really no reason that the WoL can't be tempered at this point. It just comes down to whether the Primal is powerful enough to do so. Most are not, but they also attribute this fact due to being claimed by another (Lakshmi refers to our souls as "stained"; in the JP version, staining is how tempering is referenced to my knowledge - Ifrit is a more direct example.) Ardbert speculates at some point in SHB about being tempered but just moves on from it. With that said, the Word of the Mother is quite emphatic to him, when she stops him in his tracks, that just as the Ascians serve Zodiark, so too must others execute her will. Minfilia's words from the French version are also not too dissimilar from what I'd expect of a tempered person:
Moving on, tempering involves a dual process of rendering the soul more umbral (therefore, passive) and imbuing the tempered with the element/energy of the Primal. In the French version, Emet describes this in terms of integration into the Primal's belt of energy transmission, as it seeks to increase the part of its energy in the world. Guess what happened when there was an over-abundance of Blessings of Light on the First? If I had to venture a guess, I'd say Minfilia is probably a sundered shard of one of her summoners, hence the stronger connection, whereas the Blessing may create a weaker, more conditional form of a link, explaining why Midgardsormr was able to suppress it.Quote:
Messagère d'Hydaelyn : Au milieu des cris de nos camarades happés par le sort interdit, je me suis laissé absorber à mon tour par le flux éthéré. Lorsque j'ai repris conscience, je nageais dans la mer des étoiles.
= “In the midst of the cries of our comrades caught by the forbidden spell, I let myself be absorbed in turn by the aetherial flow. Once I regained consciousness, I was swimming in the sea of stars (aetherial sea).”
Messagère d'Hydaelyn : Tout à coup, j'ai réalisé que la douce voix d'Hydaelyn était de plus en plus lointaine. J'avais tellement peur de la perdre que mon seul désir devint de me fondre en elle pour que nous soyons unies à jamais.
= “All of a sudden, I realized that the soft voice of Hydaelyn was becoming more and more distant. I was so scared to lose it that my sole desire was to melt into her so that we would be united forever.”
There is also the question about how a Primal of Darkness or Light would interact with the stage of rendering the soul more umbral - if Hydaelyn/Zodiark even do that - since dark and light directly touch on that. A live possibility is that they simply don't render the soul more umbral and that this is in contrast to those primals spawned from current summoning rites. Thus limiting the tempering to the energy/elemental synergy aspect. They were summoned by much more knowledgeable creators than any Primal we see now. The Ascians seem pretty autonomous and certainly not particularly passive. Zodiark is dormant, and Fandaniel - whose memory crystal was the faintest - seems to follow his own agenda. Elidibus tries to argue against his perspective but does not force him to change it. Emet-Selch could at least conceive of alternative plans to reach their goal. Maybe it's down to how powerful their souls are, but the devs seem to have set up a stronger link with ancient memories for the Ascians and their motivations, than tempering (e.g. emphasised in the Eden quest line with Gaia/Mitron.) Gaia's soul is nonetheless aetherically similar to an Ascian's, which given what we know of tempering, would suggest the tempering survived the Sundering and her rebirth (and Emet does say this when he addresses why the original Convocation's souls are preferred.) To me this indicates it's less about the Primal's commanding them to do it, and more to do with how strongly they were able to become their ancient self via their memory crystal. Mitron was forced to resort to a different technique using the Ascian Prime soul merger.
So while the WoL may or may not be tempered (and I don't doubt that Hydaelyn can do it), it may not mean that much in practice. There's too many unknowns to tempering to apply the mechanistic interpretation of it some people do to Hydaelyn and Zodiark. I just see tempering as a plot device, that can vary in intensity as the plot requires. Maybe it'll resurface in connection to the WoL (and Fandaniel), but for now the focal point appears to be remembrance and the promise the MC swore to Emet-Selch. I think with the attention they drew to the Amano artwork (this negative filter of it is also interesting as it aligns it with the dawn colour scheme), the wildcard of Fandaniel and the moonshot of the MC resembling Elidibus for a flash, plus the remembrance theme baked into it all, there is a possibility it won't be as trite or as simple as just Zenodiark. I certainly hope so. -
03-11-2021, 04:18 AMMarsAstro
Excellent write-up, Lauront! Hard to argue with anything you said there, and I really hope they do end up giving a proper payoff to these possibilities they've set up with Eden and ShB patches. I'd be both surprised and massively disappointed if they don't, and just go for a generic good light vs. bad dark rehash of 4.0 with a Zenodiark ending. Crossing my fingers, gonna go into this with carefully managed hype.
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03-11-2021, 05:29 AMEgilTheStressedMageThe same woman who wrote ShB which made the Ascians interesting to insane degrees is also writing EW. She turned some of SE's most generic villains into one of their most tragic. Imagine what she could do for Zenos and Fandaniel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edax
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03-11-2021, 05:36 AMBright-FlowerAnd if/when that happens it'll be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage
Doesn't change any of the criticisms about 4.0 though. -
03-11-2021, 05:37 AMKizuyaKatogami
Who was a generic villain? Emet? Also Ishikawa’s whole shtick seems to just be sob stories and no consequences for the protagonists which...gets boring fast. I really hope she changes her storytelling a bit for 6.0.
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03-11-2021, 05:52 AMLauront
Given what Yoshi has said about Zenos before, I suspect her focus will be on Fandaniel keeping things entertaining, with Zenos functioning more as a plot lever.
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03-11-2021, 06:06 AMStirlingite22
I didn't mind Zenos back in SB or even in general, but I'll admit that the thought of having to fight him... again... kinda has me a little disappointed. I'm hoping that he'll be a side bad guy and not the main bad guy.
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03-11-2021, 06:09 AMBright-FlowerI'm kind of hoping that he's being duped by Fandaniel in some way, or if he tries to hijack Zodiark or something he gets smacked down and denied. I'm kind of done watching him effortlessly beat everyone he comes across aside from our fight in Ala Mhigo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirlingite22
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03-11-2021, 06:09 AMEdaxWhile possible, you have to remember Emet was basically a blank slate when she got to writing his character. Zenos unfortunately has been well established and would constraint her ability to give him depth that doesn't contradict. 4.0 would be a heavy burden to write around.Quote:
Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage