What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I didn't say healer. I said non-tank.

As in, every single DPS and Healer job would need to see about a 24.5% reduction.

In order to get Tanks to 12% and -only- attain it by reducing healer damage, you would be reducing healer damage output by 121% - as in bringing the healer is worth less than leaving the slot empty.

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Hang on one second. Wasn't the crux of your arguments in both threads that damage isn't an important consideration for tanks? i.e.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

If your only reason to tank is the rainbow bar, the devs aren't the problem.

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And now you're stating that if healers don't do the damage that they do, they don't have any raid value? That seems inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

And now you're stating that if healers don't do the damage that they do, they don't have any raid value? That seems inconsistent.

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How so? You took an obviously paradoxical value that was meant only to point out that something would be impossible (raising tanks each to 12% of raid rDPS at the expense of healer contribution alone) to contradict an actual claim in an altogether different post.

Again, that point about "bringing a healer is worth less than leaving the slot empty", which you've equated to 'healers would have no raid value if they did any less damage than they currently do' occurs only with them dealing NEGATIVE rDPS as in the absurd example showing how siphoning only from healers is not remotely possible. That wasn't even "negative relative to having a DPS in that slot", but in absolute terms.

You're getting a bit absurd here with how much you're twisting these quotes, their contexts, and their obvious intents...

Not really. If healers doing less damage results in them having no raid value, then the only value that healers presently provide is linked their damage output. I wouldn't agree with that viewpoint personally.

If your point was that "such a percentage increase to tank damage could not mathematically occur through reducing healer damage output alone", then that's probably a more sensible way to phrase it rather than talking rubbish about healers doing negative damage. It's fair to ask for clarification when someone types out an incoherent response.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's fair to ask for clarification when someone types out an incoherent response.

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What part of 'I specifically said non-tanks, not healers, because it's quite literally impossible to siphon that much damage from healers alone' is incoherent? It was a mere clarification of terms, amounting to "I meant the term I used, and not an adjacent term that would be, in this case, nonsensical."

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Not really. If healers doing less damage results in them having no raid value, then the only value that healers presently provide is linked their damage output. I wouldn't agree with that viewpoint personally.

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And you're free to disagree with your strawmen however you like; they're yours. However, the person you were quoting never said "Any less damage => no raid value".

At best you could say they claimed that, to make a point about why a particular term was selected, that "if healers were, in fact, to be the sole victims of the role's percent contribution being adjusted, they would end up dealing negative damage and thus end up being a burden not worthy of their slot." Again, you're cherry-picking a clarification for why they used a particular term to the person who misunderstood them due to replacing that term with another, rather different one, as some sort of "got ya" indicator of hypocrisy. It's not. Nor is it incoherent.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You're getting a bit absurd here with how much you're twisting these quotes, their contexts, and their obvious intents...

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Because of this thread I reactivated my Paladin again (Level 80), and I started levelling the Gunbreaker.

After months of playing Healer, I overall have a lot of fun to dive back into tanking. Especially in Dungeons I have a lot of fun plying the tank.

Trials and Raids however are not as much fun, because you have two tanks and there is always the instant fight who should be main and who should be offtank. The offtank role is most of the time not very exciting, and you are more like a bad melee range damage dealer doing your attack rotations, and have not much else to do.

Other then that, I believe tanking is in a fine place right now and more players should try it out. :)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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There's actually no restriction on how raid damage is divided up, as long as the total proportion of raid damage from tanks, healers, and damage dealers sums up to 100%. The claim that healers would have to do "negative damage" (i.e. heal enemies with their attacks) to even partially restore what we had previously is absurd.

People like seeing their actions have impact. Damage is probably the simplest and most straightforward way in which this happens. Tanks want to do damage. Healers want to do damage. Damage dealers want to do damage. Let's not pretend that this isn't the case, or try to shame tanks and healers for being honest about what they want. In the absence of offering more damage, you have to at the very least offer some other way for players in these roles to have play-making potential.

I wish I had come earlier and had experienced the stances tanking.
As thngs are, it's damn easy, I only had some issues keeping aggro yesterday when I was tanking with Warrior in a 50 level dungeon because it's an alt and I didn't upgrade the weapon since the lasat class quest awarded one at around level 20.
The stance swap makes me thing there was some kind of tradeoff between stances so you had to balance out when you focused on defence and when you focused on attack to make it more interesting.
Then again I'm still in the process of trying to push the PLD job to the limits and find my way to best use of it, so I'm not sue if a stance system would add something or would just turn tanks into another DPS flavour as it seems people was complaining at the end of Stormblood.

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On my answer to the OP, I was initially scared of tanking because of the fame of the role responsibility; but actually I think it may be the easiest role to play. I also found that I have much better awareness of what's going on when playing as a tank (PLD) than when I play as melee DPS (SAM) or healer (SCH).
At this moment what I'm starting to get against tanking (which I hope to make my main) is that three times in five days I've got healers using rescue to either force me rudely into a new mob, instead of just asking me to pull more, or to place me in AoEs. Extremely annoying.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

People like seeing their actions have impact. Damage is probably the simplest and most straightforward way in which this happens. Tanks want to do damage. Healers want to do damage. Damage dealers want to do damage. Let's not pretend that this isn't the case, or try to shame tanks and healers for being honest about what they want.

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I haven't disagreed with any part of that. I've not attempted to "shame" tanks or healers for wanting more damage. I have asked for more damage for tanks as to have a greater sense of impact. Kabooa likewise pointed out that a damage increase to tank would be good and fair, noting only that an increase in any role's relative performance has to come from somewhere, and just how huge increasing each tank to 12% contribution actually would be.

You're acting like there's this vast hypocrisy just because someone dares to consider the technicals of what's being requested, while you alone are being "honest" for being vague. There isn't.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In the absence of offering more damage, you have to at the very least offer some other way for players in these roles to have play-making potential.

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And there's not a single person here who's asked that tanks not have their play-making potential expanded. Some, as with healers, have asked that come through forms other than damage. Most, myself included, want both damage and additional role-specific tasks or actual gameplay involved therein. So what's the with "righteous me (on behalf of the silent majority) against those who would hold us back" tone? No one's disagreeing with the main points here.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There's actually no restriction on how raid damage is divided up, as long as the total proportion of raid damage from tanks, healers, and damage dealers sums up to 100%. The claim that healers would have to do "negative damage" (i.e. heal enemies with their attacks) to even partially restore what we had previously is absurd.

People like seeing their actions have impact. Damage is probably the simplest and most straightforward way in which this happens. Tanks want to do damage. Healers want to do damage. Damage dealers want to do damage. Let's not pretend that this isn't the case, or try to shame tanks and healers for being honest about what they want. In the absence of offering more damage, you have to at the very least offer some other way for players in these roles to have play-making potential.

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Blind number demanding is what I bring out the numbers for, as well as exposing how little weight arguments like "contribution" actually have, as they are arguments that do not uniquely work for tanks. I also point out through analysis why an argument either does or doesn't have merit.

I'll also point out every time I've prompted others to do their homework so they aren't talking out of their rear, they don't.

You know.

Inviting them to back up their assertions without just pointing at the rainbow bar and saying "SEE!?!?!".

For example: "12%" isn't a coincidence. It's basically early Heavensward, where Tanks gutted their EHP in order to have more damage. Which is a fair trade off. Doing so at the time put tanks at around a 130% passive EHP advantage over DPS.

You cannot do this now with tanks in their current state. Tanks sit at around a passive 250% EHP advantage over DPS.

Putting this into perspective, lets assume we have a stance toggle that magically makes it all fair. We'll even put on a 45s recast so you commit to it and if you do it at the wrong time, you get kerfluffled.

The toggle, aiming to put them at around 80-85% the average DPS, would look as follows.

'Rainbow Toggle'
Effect: Reduces Defense to 0 and maximum HP by 25%. Increases damage dealt by 40%