Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

I said it before and I'll say it again. A talent system in this game is a gigantic waste of resources. The game just isn't build to work that way. They would literally have to rebuild the game from the ground up, a FFXIV ARR 3.0 so to speak. Plus a system like that can't just be added in, look at lotros talent tree system, people hated that and they still hate it. WoW got rid of theirs because it wasn't that great. Rift still has it, but the game is built around it, so it works.

With a system like talents, the game needs to be built around it, or it will just fall apart fast.

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

I said it before and I'll say it again. A talent system in this game is a gigantic waste of resources. The game just isn't build to work that way. They would literally have to rebuild the game from the ground up, a FFXIV ARR 3.0 so to speak.

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I don't even care if they put in a talent system if they rebuild the game from ground up to modern standards.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

I don't even care if they put in a talent system if they rebuild the game from ground up to modern standards.

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The game is built to modern MMO standards. Also note that "modern standards" is very nebulous. There are people who want turn based games, there are people that want pure action games, there are people who want hybrid turn based action games, there are people who want turn based tactics games, there are people who want hybrid turn based tactics shooter games (valkyria chronicles if that confused you).

This game would not have 14m active accounts if it was not up to "modern standards".

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

The game is built to modern MMO standards. Also note that "modern standards" is very nebulous. There are people who want turn based games, there are people that want pure action games, there are people who want hybrid turn based action games, there are people who want turn based tactics games, there are people who want hybrid turn based tactics shooter games (valkyria chronicles if that confused you).

This game would not have 14m active accounts if it was not up to "modern standards".

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Number of subs doesn't have to do with being modern, and enough with the subs. The whole thing with subs is just such a cop out, "There's subs therefore it is perfect." Which is nowhere near true. Quite frankly, SE knows what modern standards are. They make their FF games based off such standards, they themselves knows and FFXIV SHB is not even up to par of FFXV, and at this point I'm tired of arguing about it, at the end of the day, what's important is that SE knows, it doesn't matter some people subjectively thinks they want in a game as that has nothing to do with modernness.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Number of subs doesn't have to do with being modern, and enough with the subs. The whole thing with subs is just such a cop out, "There's subs therefore it is perfect." Which is nowhere near true. Quite frankly, SE knows what modern standards are. They make their FF games based off such standards, they themselves knows and FFXIV SHB is not even up to par of FFXV, and at this point I'm tired of arguing about it, at the end of the day, what's important is that SE knows, it doesn't matter some people subjectively thinks they want in a game as that has nothing to do with modernness.

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Yes which is why FFXV did so well (which it did not do so well) and FF7R is going with a system that lets people smack things for low damage as filler (almost like an auto attack) while they wait for their ATB(GCD) to finish so they can go into turn mode to use the actual hard hitting skills.

Yeah the most modern FF game that is going to come out is going to use a system that is very similar to what the original version of it had and what the MMO has rather then a version that is like what the previous entry had.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

snip.

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Let's not start with the "Game x has action combat, game x failed, therefore action combat failed." bullcrap, because then I'm just going to claim WoW failed because of GCD therefore we should get rid of GCD in FFXIV. And we all know FFXV's combat was one of its upsides, it certainly did not fail because of it. Not to mention it sold 2.5mil copies on the ps4 alone.

FF7R's combat system has similarities to the old system, but so what? Every hack n slash game can be said to be similar to the oldest hack n slash system, that doesn't mean Diablo 1 and devil may cry 5 are on the same level of modernness. Did you actually see the FF7R gameplay? It's looks like a fusion of several different systems blending together seamlessly, the combat is smooth and has good flow, it's quick when need bursting, and you land good combos to recharge faster, they are clearly trying something new and fairly modern... I don't know why you are being sarcastic, FF7R is really not helping your case.

i am gonna say what this game has in fact a talent system, that talent system is called class/jobs, you aren't x job, your character can be anythyng, oh, you want to heal? go scholar(or other healer), tired of healing and want to do more dmg? change to blm(or other dps), and so on, unlike the majority of other mmos where if you want to play other job you gonna create a diferent character completely, so class/jobs acts as specs in itself

To be honest, I don't know how else they could really go about balancing Ninja/Dancer for small party / solo content than some sort of system that lets them shift between utility and damage. Of course, you'd need to offer things to everyone else to be fair too. It would be a big implementation that Square wouldn't do on a whim as it would likely take a lot of planning and development. It just seems like Utility DPS will always be subpar in solo content / small group content with how Square wants to go about things. It's the side effect of them balancing their output around raid content (which arguably they are still underperforming even in raid content atm which is concerning.)

I kind of wish Square would be more open about their reasoning with balance because it doesn't make sense often. E.g. Dragoon being expected to do more DPS on Dummies than greedy DPS as if they are supposed to do more DPS and give utility? Summoner being made busier while simultaneously doing less relative damage than before? Utility DPS supposedly being balanced around Raid content, only to seemingly be underperfoming in it anyways? What's going on?

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Originally Posted by Xau

i am gonna say what this game has in fact a talent system, that talent system is called class/jobs, you aren't x job, your character can be anythyng, oh, you want to heal? go scholar(or other healer), tired of healing and want to do more dmg? change to blm(or other dps), and so on, unlike the majority of other mmos where if you want to play other job you gonna create a diferent character completely, so class/jobs acts as specs in itself

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A "talent system", by literally any conventional definition, must allow you to differentiate your build from others of the same class by virtue of said "talent system". That you can use one character to play all classes -- [I]thereby missing out on raid and currency gear for all but one armor type per early tier -- rather than multiple characters -- the technically far less limited choice even in XIV -- does differentiate your class from other players of the same class.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

'' Customization '' in WoW is really sort of a myth.

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No more so, fundamentally, than "illusion of choice".

Customization exists up to a certain point based on the balance of the various builds in the context of the given tier, including the fights themselves, gear optimization available, party skill and level of optimization, and the meta compositions that form from and around those three factors. Neither complete customization nor complete "illusion" exist except on classes/jobs/specializations/professions/masteries/etc. that have been particularly poorly balanced.

In the past, viable player choice in customization was often overestimated, but as jadedness in the face of optimization and refusal to experiment are more the way of the day, it tends now to be underestimated.

Edit: None of this is to say that I want talent trees or anything in that vein in XIV. I don't. But I'd rather not bend definitions well past their breaking points or sling jaded generalizations as facts just to argue that they shouldn't be applied to the game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A "talent system", by literally any conventional definition, must allow you to differentiate your build from others of the same class by virtue of said "talent system". That you can use one character to play all classes -- [I]thereby missing out on raid and currency gear for all but one armor type per early tier -- rather than multiple characters -- the technically far less limited choice even in XIV -- does differentiate your class from other players of the same class.


No more so than "illusion of choice".

Customization exists up to a certain point based on the balance of the various builds in the context of the given tier, including the fights themselves, gear optimization available, party skill and level of optimization, and the meta compositions that form from and around those three factors. Neither complete customization nor complete "illusion" exist except on classes/jobs/specializations/professions/masteries/etc. that have been particularly poorly balanced.

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Oops I deleted my comment because I misread and thought that the OP was comparing it to WoW lol.

I think that '' Illusion of choice '' is exactly what I'd call the talent system in current WoW.
Vanilla was a bit all over the place, it was a lot more chaotic than it is today because most people were so new to MMO's. But Vanilla did have some more varied builds as far as I remember altho they revolved more around a strong niche.
In current WoW tho it's basically '' do you wanna take the shitty talent, or do you want to take the good/ least bad one? ''.

The only kind of '' customization '' in this regard that I'd like to see in FFXIV is skins for abilities and such.
Sorta like Egi glams.

Edit: With that said tho, the vanilla talent tree was more fun imo and is actually something that I look forward to in Classic WoW.
But I wouldn't want something like current WoW in FFXIV.
Especially not since it usually means that you lose it as a baseline ability and it's just shoved into a talent tree.
So instead of having all three abilities I now have to pick one for example.

But in the end of the day all that would really happen is what always happens I think.
Something would very clearly be meta, and everyone would go with that.
And I also don't think that it'd solve any of the complaints.
People would just keep complaining because what they want to play isn't meta and because the contents balance isn't swinging in their favor.

Like if a more support bard is meta then the personal dps ones would just be complaining vise versa and then the devs would have to deal with at least two headaches instead of one for each job.