Mogtalk interview with yoshi p

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

(1)Firstly - thank you for responding. Secondly, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying to nerf healers outright and leave the content alone. My healing model of less bursty damage, less bursty healing go hand in hand and I actually think it leads not only to EASIER healing, but also DEEPER healing...

(2)In regards to the current healing model - I think it's much more stressful to your average healer because there's no chance for recovery. It's simply press Heal here, or someone dies because incoming damage is so high even if it's slow coming; whereas my model a healer with slower reactions might struggle to top them off, but can at least stabilize them (say keep a tank at a consistent 60% HP). In the event things go awry they can blow significant MP to help get things under control at a cost to their longevity. Something that the DPS can then back up and help cover (assuming encounter design shifted, which under my model it would). I think it gives them more time to make decisions and more options in how to triage various scenarios.

(3)This is not something I advocated for at all. I don't want a cure rotation (a la healer "combos"). I imagine a builder/spender style as a better rendition of the lily mechanic from WHM. You can accrue the lilies based on casting heals and convert the lilies into either MP, free heals, damage, or some other utility, etc...

(4)...Riyah - just like I said to Granyala - if you said Kald, you have some good ideas and I think XYZ, but I'm just not confident they can implement it in a meaningful or good manner. If you obviously don't think my ideas are fine that's all well and good too.

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(1) I don't see this, and it's hard to argue in one breath healing is more meaningful, while somehow being easier than the current system. Again, the more priority you place on cures over optional DPS, the harder it will be. You're arguing maybe for a different kind of difficulty, and that would have to change a lot more than just healers to be implemented. I think you believe its easier, but it may very well be the same difficulty or worse, because triage just pushes the wipe ten minutes down the line instead of it happening in 60 seconds.

(2) This puts more of a burden on healers to fix mistakes, ironically. Part of the "bam, your dead!" model means DPS need to know they can't rely on the healer too much to ignore mechanics. And also, if this style of play leads to longer fights, you still have more stress; hard fights generally are at a decent sweet spot in time to where you aren't getting exhausted healing over the long term.

(3) Well, the thing is that if you want say 70-30% heals, you are essentially asking people to cast cure as much as stone in a fight, so you would just swap the boredom. Rotations tend to make that somewhat more interesting and probably would end up being made.

(4) The point was not for you specifically, it's more an observation that modest changes people dislike intensely...so then why are people confident they'd be ok with intensive changes? Even good ideas can be poorly implemented, and the devs simply are not going to implement in toto any suggestions here, except in a general way or modest way. I think a lot of these points should be argued for the next game SE makes, unless we are ok with SE constantly changing the base mechanics of this game every expansion, or even more frequently.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I think it would yes. A good example would be like let's say you did make a bad decision in triage and spent WAY too much MP stabilizing so now you'relow on MP (a healer OOM is likely a wipe as you'd be able to sustain only for a little longer and you'd lose access to your more potent expensive heals you may need to correct mistakes). You could then try and correct that decision by focusing on more efficient MP heals or converting lilies into MP/free heals to try and recover.

Compare that paradigm against your O6S example where your mistake just instantly cost someone a death and jeapordized the run because of a single poorly timed heal. It gives you a chance to recover from your mistake. Under my design paradigm it'd also allows other teammates to look at your MP and go crap, I need to be smarter with my defensives, and a tank can say - oh i need to shift to more defensive ability usage to give the healer time to recover. I think it creates a more dynamic experience as well as a more in-depth, but simultaneously easier healing experience.

Not saying I'm right or wrong, just how I feel.

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Well this is how the healing of old worked. We were powerful but ultimately severely mana constrained. Remember the buff that makes cure 2 cost no mana? When I dinged 50 back in ARR I needed to watch that and use it. Nowadays we can spam our most powerful heals indefinitely and add damage to boot. Outside of combat rezzes, mana might as well not exist.

I would like the ability to go into overdrive at a significant cost if sth happens, right now we are in perma overdrive and the encounters are balanced around that. That's where the "cast a wrong heal and s/o dies" comes from.

I do think your concept has it's allures and would bring us back to the elder days where mana and choosing the right tool for the right job mattered a lot more than it does now.
4 people of your 8 hurt? Spam AoE and DPS, even if there were the time to bring them up with efficient single target heals, DPS time is far more valuable and no one gives a rats ass about the overheal on the other 4.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

(2) This puts more of a burden on healers to fix mistakes, ironically. Part of the "bam, your dead!" model means DPS need to know they can't rely on the healer too much to ignore mechanics. And also, if this style of play leads to longer fights, you still have more stress; hard fights generally are at a decent sweet spot in time to where you aren't getting exhausted healing over the long term.

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Part of the appeal of healing is that you can save people. It's in the name of the role. Removing that with overly frequent one shots puts the burden on DPS but removes that aspect of the healer's identity.

Some one shots are good variety in fights. Too many means there's little a healer can do to sway an outcome by doing something exceptional and saving someone who should have died. An example is Hashmal's extreme edge. That rarely one shots people these days damage wise, they usually die from the DoT tick. That means that while it's the target's fault if they die, a healer who sees it fast enough and is in range can save them from that death. That's better than just "oh here's 2 million damage you die instantly" because it's clear both who made the mistake and also gives the healer an opportunity to intervene.

To me, that's far more compelling healer gameplay than "nothing to do, spam another Stone".

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(3) Well, the thing is that if you want say 70-30% heals, you are essentially asking people to cast cure as much as stone in a fight, so you would just swap the boredom. Rotations tend to make that somewhat more interesting and probably would end up being made.

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Except that Cure does things like Freecure and Lilies. Freecure used to matter but doesn't because MP is a joke now, and Lilies are irrelevant because of what they do. If those things were relevant resources, Cure healing has more going on mechanically than Stone spam does. Plus, I'm probably also using Regen, Tetra, Asylum, etc.

Problem is once you die, even once, you lose all your MP and suffer a 25% potency loss or so to your cures. So if you play the MP management game, you've raised the stakes for a healer dying quite a bit. Combine that with lower potency base cures, and either its much harder for healers, or you need to target them less with instakill mechanics. And there are times when even in hard content I see healers who are new or not so good die twice. You can recover from that now, but if its much more triage-y it actually makes it worse.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

(1)Part of the appeal of healing is that you can save people. It's in the name of the role. Removing that with overly frequent one shots puts the burden on DPS but removes that aspect of the healer's identity.

(2)Some one shots are good variety in fights. Too many means there's little a healer can do to sway an outcome by doing something exceptional and saving someone who should have died. An example is Hashmal's extreme edge. That rarely one shots people these days damage wise, they usually die from the DoT tick...

(3)...Except that Cure does things like Freecure and Lilies. Freecure used to matter but doesn't because MP is a joke now, and Lilies are irrelevant because of what they do. If those things were relevant resources, Cure healing has more going on mechanically than Stone spam does. Plus, I'm probably also using Regen, Tetra, Asylum, etc.

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(1) then you get blamed for not saving people, even when it isn't possible. As it is now, you can save some attacks, but you're not able to carry people who legitimately screw up beyond a point.

(2) You couldn't save anyone but a tank from hashmal. I have pretty fast reflexes, and I couldn't beat the server tic on healers or dps on it. Maybe now that some DPS can hit 45k HP, same as tanks at min ilvl when they did it you can save them, but that's not a good example. And as it is, a lot of healers don't even esuna titan's gaol debuff, slow debuffs, and more erasable mechanics unless it one shots the person.

(3) No, none of those mattered all that much. The problem with procs is that unlike DPS, we really don't get benefit out of randomness in cures. We can't really just use a bigger cure when it procs, and a lot of ogcds that proc might as well just have a strict timer if we hold on to them for specific boss attacks. that's the problem with the whm aoe buff (whose name escapes me)...its proc based, and its really worthless many times since you don't need it. And they tried to make people need it by doing double aoe attacks, which just made it more annoying for sch and ast.

And as it is, proc-based gameplay barely works for WHM. SCH in particular couldn't deal with it much, and AST's rng stuff is the cards.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Great idea. :)

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Glad you liked it. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

(1) I don't see this, and it's hard to argue in one breath healing is more meaningful, while somehow being easier than the current system. Again, the more priority you place on cures over optional DPS, the harder it will be. You're arguing maybe for a different kind of difficulty, and that would have to change a lot more than just healers to be implemented. I think you believe its easier, but it may very well be the same difficulty or worse, because triage just pushes the wipe ten minutes down the line instead of it happening in 60 seconds.

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Are you saying that it is impossible for something to be easier than the current iteration while simultaneously being more meaningful?

I agree that it's a different kind of difficulty, but I think that sharing the responsibility across an entire team is infinitely healthier design. Sure you could wipe 10 minutes in instead of 1, but it wouldn't be JUST one persons fault like it is now. It would take an entire team of people making multiple mistakes and missing opportunities to save the pull for it to occur.

By all means Riyah - you don't have to like my ideas. I'd be just as willing to listen to yours if you can think of a better alternative (I don't recall seeing you take a stance in many of these arguments, so if I missed it let me know).

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(2) This puts more of a burden on healers to fix mistakes, ironically. Part of the "bam, your dead!" model means DPS need to know they can't rely on the healer too much to ignore mechanics. And also, if this style of play leads to longer fights, you still have more stress; hard fights generally are at a decent sweet spot in time to where you aren't getting exhausted healing over the long term.

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Good, that's what a healer should be. Not a fake 1 button DPS job. Longer fights? Where did I mention that anywhere in the discussion? In fact, if you know my stance - I'm VERY anti-long fights. I much prefer shorter high intensity fights (a la ExDeath/Kefka).

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(3) Well, the thing is that if you want say 70-30% heals, you are essentially asking people to cast cure as much as stone in a fight, so you would just swap the boredom. Rotations tend to make that somewhat more interesting and probably would end up being made.

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No, rotations aren't needed. What's needed is more robust oGCDs and healing intermechanics. Like my Lily proposal. That is how you make gameplay more rewarding and engaging by bringing in synergy and decision points. You don't need a strict healing rotation to accommodate that design.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Well this is how the healing of old worked. We were powerful but ultimately severely mana constrained. Remember the buff that makes cure 2 cost no mana? When I dinged 50 back in ARR I needed to watch that and use it. Nowadays we can spam our most powerful heals indefinitely and add damage to boot. Outside of combat rezzes, mana might as well not exist.

I would like the ability to go into overdrive at a significant cost if sth happens, right now we are in perma overdrive and the encounters are balanced around that. That's where the "cast a wrong heal and s/o dies" comes from.

I do think your concept has it's allures and would bring us back to the elder days where mana and choosing the right tool for the right job mattered a lot more than it does now.
4 people of your 8 hurt? Spam AoE and DPS, even if there were the time to bring them up with efficient single target heals, DPS time is far more valuable and no one gives a rats ass about the overheal on the other 4.

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In summary - it sounds like you think there's merit to the idea and would even consider it decent, but have apprehensions to its implementation. That's good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Problem is once you die, even once, you lose all your MP and suffer a 25% potency loss or so to your cures. So if you play the MP management game, you've raised the stakes for a healer dying quite a bit. Combine that with lower potency base cures, and either its much harder for healers, or you need to target them less with instakill mechanics. And there are times when even in hard content I see healers who are new or not so good die twice. You can recover from that now, but if its much more triage-y it actually makes it worse.

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You're thinking too one-dimensionally. Yes of course that happens NOW, but that could EASILY be switched in a new design. They could just as easily limit # of res's and reduce their MP cost, have less of a resource penalty (i.e. you res with what you had) and remove the penalty all together.