Pros and Cons of each Healer Role

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Let's say a WHM and SCH walk up and say I can build a taller stable tower out of jenga blocks than you! They proceed to start building and the WHM is definitely higher than the SCH"s. However once it reached 3 feet it fell over and the SCH just kept going and hit up to 4.5 feet. The WHM at the end says, 'well we aren't comparing stable tower anymore because mine fell over, so I had the taller stable tower."

The fact that the SCH can sustain high DPS for longer than the WHM due to MP constraints is why the SCH has higher sustained DPS.

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I appreciate the analogy as it helps me understand your line of thinking. You've missed something critical in your analogy however. "DPS" = "Damage per second" i.e. a "rate". It's not about how much tower you've built, it's about the "rate" at which you've built.

Root of the problem in this example is the same that it has been in previous ones: time.

When comparing "sustained DPS" in the tower example, we're comparing the rates at which the SCH and WHM can build a tower. WHM can build more tower per second than the SCH, which is why it has the highest "sustained DPS". This metric is important in selecting the right job for the task/use case. For example, if the WHM can only build towers up to 3 feet tall, but can build them faster than SCH, it is preferred over SCH for any job requiring a 3 foot tower or smaller.

Directly addressing the topic: you are combining the categories of "MP management" and "sustained DPS". While "MP management" and even "mobility" can negatively impact a WHM's DPS, you cant know in advance if, or the degree to which, the use case will cause MP or mobility problems that negatively impact the WHM's DPS. The term "sustained DPS", at least in part, exists a measure to see where you stand before taking penalties.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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thank you for the constructive (and very much correct) argument with actual data. Its very rare on the internet and wish more people did that. That said I did already mention how potent both pets are, and also never intended to brush off the upgraded traits off scholars. I know most of the potent situations there is really no reason for whm to do it instead, but rather was wondering what else they offered vs whm outside of cleric besides fairy heals just out of curiosity. Since fairies are such a huge part of scholar thats already good enough utility as is and supports your argument. Your argument for virus being a hell of a lot better is very much true and everything you said is true regardless. There is always a stretch of time where dps and healers have enough time to regain mp/tp. I understand what you mean and you are right.

and accuracy all slipped our minds, but it definitely does tie into your argument. Idk how that slipped, but it did as I've already mentioned in my reply to that post lol. The one thing healers have been complaining about in this forum just vanished in our heads.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

i'm confused? What does the scholar offer that whm can't (besides fairy) in cleric stance?

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Off the top of my head:

virus, e4e, sacred soil, either fey wind/fey caress/silent dusk or fey illumination/fey covenant/whispering dawn on top of embrace every 3s. That's a lot of potential utility and eHP restored without leaving cleric.

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Originally Posted by CBellz

Off the top of my head:

virus, e4e, sacred soil, either fey wind/fey caress/silent dusk or fey illumination/fey covenant/whispering dawn on top of embrace every 3s. That's a lot of potential utility and eHP restored without leaving cleric.

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i've already mentioned the use of "no fairy heals" in that post you quoted :p (also made note of those skills you already said below that sentence, but jack already covered that).

Though I did forget sacred soil. Another important skill not brought up. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I appreciate the analogy as it helps me understand your line of thinking. You've missed something critical in your analogy however. "DPS" = "Damage per second" i.e. a "rate". It's not about how much tower you've built, it's about the "rate" at which you've built.

Root of the problem in this example is the same that it has been in previous ones: time.

When comparing "sustained DPS" in the tower example, we're comparing the rates at which the SCH and WHM can build a tower. WHM can build more tower per second than the SCH, which is why it has the highest "sustained DPS". This metric is important in selecting the right job for the task/use case. For example, if the WHM can only build towers up to 3 feet tall, but can build them faster than SCH, it is preferred over SCH for any job requiring a 3 foot tower or smaller.

Directly addressing the topic: you are combining the categories of "MP management" and "sustained DPS". While "MP management" and even "mobility" can negatively impact a WHM's DPS, you cant know in advance if, or the degree to which, the use case will cause MP or mobility problems that negatively impact the WHM's DPS. The term "sustained DPS", at least in part, exists a measure to see where you stand before taking penalties.

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The problem here is that in practice, that "rate" isn't a constant value. Therefore, we are comparing an average rate.
The idea is that some classes can have a high rate for a limited amount of time (so, a high dps potential), after which it drops significantly, while other classes have a lower potential, but also don't have a drop as significantly. That's what that analogy was about.

For sustained DPS, we are generally smoothing away that limited high rate (generally called burst), so that these different classes can be compared for their overall result.

Now we can consider multiple ways to do that smoothing:
- consider the ENTIRE fight in which you want to compare classes, this of course has the issue that it's fight-dependent
- consider a theoretical situation in which a fight has no downtime and lasts forever, this has the problem that the burst part no longer has any influence, but you can reason about this theoretically, by determining the optimal/a resource-neutral rotation.
- consider an arbitrary amount of time, this isn't fight-dependent, and takes burst in account, which is nice, but it's hard to agree on what time period to choose.

I'd say the best definition for sustained dps is the 2nd method.. Every class can have a resource neutral rotation, although it might involve some planned idling (or foregoing skill/spell speed stats, which is essentially equivalent). This is a clear definition without any dependence on specific fight mechanics.