Break the Trinity System Please

It STILL works perfectly in games that have lasted and continued to release content long before WoW was even a dream in some solo players head.

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Originally Posted by Inflorescence

In order for a support role to be viable, it has to enhance the abilities of your party members at pretty close to exactly the same magnitude of your lost DPS (because you just can't do it without a healer or a tank, without some massive defense buffs, which would totally imbalance the game). Any higher, and parties quickly become, "[tank][tank][healer][healer][dps][dps][dps][<specific support class>]," and that kind of job obligation is exactly what FFXIV has always (rightly) striven against.

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Bard says hi.


[tank][tank][healer][healer][dps][dps][dps][bard]

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Originally Posted by Delily

So, rather than admit something was a mistake, we should just keep refining it. We'll get ir right this time, I swear!...

...If the support class doesn't offer anything compelling over a damage class, and there is no requirement to play one, people will not play it. Do you not understand why tanks are always in demand?

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1) faulty/poor design was the mistake, not the premise... there's a difference between recreation & refinement. I'm not saying we mimic 100% models of the past that didn't work, that would be insanity.

2) people will play it who want to play Supports... just like how people play MNK over DRG because they prefer Monks & vice versa.

That second argument of yours is a terrible one that has no feet to stand on.

People will play it who like the Job/Role, just because it isn't for you or certain others, doesn't mean people won't play it.

You're acting like it's not possible whatsoever to get Supports to work within the current framework and that clearly isn't the case.

Also, not saying Supports should have 'nothing compelling' about them... just like the current model, every Job has something they can bring to the table (or should from their design-philosophy).

Any Job, Support or not, is intended to be designed with usefulness/viability in mind... compelling reasons they deserve a spot in party construction.

Its really a content balancing issue. You can't have any support class' group-wide buffs be too powerful for 8-man content or too weak for 4-man content.

For instance, if you send support_01 into Sashtasha HM and they can buff your DPS and Tank's output by 80% to make up for missing the other DPS, that ability would be ridiculously overpowered in 8 man content, buffing 3-4 other DPS and 1-2 other tanks! It would have to be time-restricted buffs to single players with weak non-tangible group buffs.

There are other kinds of utility besides just buffing damage.

Of course, things like crowd control, mp management, haste, slow, silence, meaningful AE stuns, and resist debuffs all went the way of the dodo after gaming was watered down.

However, if these things are made useful as they used to be - the new trinity becomes what the old trinity was - Heal/Tank/Utility... then fill in dps.

Either utility is critical or it's a waste of space. EQ always started with Tank/Healer/CC,Haste,Slow... You could use a shaman and cleric (haste/slows)... cleric and enchanter (haste/slows/CC/MP)... druid and enchanter(haste/slows/CC/MPx2)... Shaman and chanter (Haste,Slows,CC,MP)... or bard was ghetto haste/slows and mp.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Its really a content balancing issue. You can't have any support class' group-wide buffs be too powerful for 8-man content or too weak for 4-man content.

For instance, if you send support_01 into Sashtasha HM and they can buff your DPS and Tank's output by 80% to make up for missing the other DPS, that ability would be ridiculously overpowered in 8 man content, buffing 3-4 other DPS and 1-2 other tanks! It would have to be time-restricted buffs to single players with weak non-tangible group buffs.

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problem with this is the idea that raid content should be balanced around group content in FFXIV.

I'm sorry but when available gear to non raiders is 40-50 ilvls above the dungeons requirements. They should not be considered when balancing. So what is their spells are broken as fuck in group content. Having ilvl 120 gear is broken as fk in group content.

Not attacking you but you're just restating what they have said. But the simple fact is they suck at balancing their game anyway so who cares.

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Originally Posted by Toodles

1) faulty/poor design was the mistake, not the premise... there's a difference between recreation & refinement. I'm not saying we mimic 100% models of the past that didn't work, that would be insanity.

2) people will play it who want to play Supports... just like how people play MNK over DRG because they prefer Monks & vice versa.

That second argument of yours is a terrible one that has no feet to stand on.
People will play it who like the Job/Role, just because it isn't for you or certain others, doesn't mean people won't play it.

You're acting like it's not possible whatsoever to get Supports to work within the current framework and that clearly isn't the case.

Also, not saying Supports should have 'nothing compelling' about them... just like the current model, every Job has something they can bring to the table (or should from their design-philosophy).

Any Job, Support or not, is intended to be designed with usefulness/viability in mind... compelling reasons they deserve a spot in party construction.

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So, all of those games that had tank/healer/DD/{support,CC}, just had it wrong then?

I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying it's not necessary. Right now, all classes bring some form of buffs and/or CC to the table in addition to the differences in how they fulfill their primary roles. They are short lived on long cooldowns (or tied to a resource) so that while they help people complete encounters, they aren't required. What possible value could a support class add to that, outside of fulfilling a few players' desire to play support? SE could go ahead and implement a full on support role, sure thing. But then we'd be back to bards and red mages in FFXI.

^no, contextually was speaking on the examples of ones people were saying broke the game or ruined it... not saying 100% of past examples were bad design.

Games are meant for enjoyment, if implementing Supports meant more people had more fun playing the game, it's worth a look.

Necessary doesn't really factor in.

PVP isn't 'necessary', more than 8-man's isn't 'necessary', Card Game isn't 'necessary'.

Surely enough people would love to play a Support-archetype in this game to merit its consideration.

I think LOTROs Captain class was the best support class I'd ever seen in a game. They could spec as tank, healer, or DD and subsequently support either of those roles best, while still being able to support the rest of the party. How were they balanced? They couldn't do any of this stuff to themselves. 8 man content always needed a captain but you could spec to be any of the 3 roles. I really like it and think it would work well here.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

I think LOTROs Captain class was the best support class I'd ever seen in a game. They could spec as tank, healer, or DD and subsequently support either of those roles best, while still being able to support the rest of the party. How were they balanced? They couldn't do any of this stuff to themselves. 8 man content always needed a captain but you could spec to be any of the 3 roles. I really like it and think it would work well here.

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Captains were way powerful. The amount of damage/healing they could bring with their support was so good, every group, not every raid, every single group in the raid wanted their own captain.

While they were nice, captains or even anything similar could never work here. They made content that was remotely challenging a real joke due to how good their buffs were. They would literally kill the balance of this game.

Be still my heart- always loved being a support class. I especially miss Chanter (from Aion). The best and most loved support class I can think of. Loved those yummy mantras:

Victory Mantra - Increases Attack.
Shield Mantra - Increases Physical Defense, Block, Parry and Evasion.
Magic Mantra - Increases Magic Boost and Magic Accuracy.
Celerity Mantra - Increases Movement Speed.
Revival Mantra - Recovers HP.
Clement Mind Mantra - Recovers MP.
Intensity Mantra - Increases Crit Strike.
Protection Mantra - Increases All Elemental Defense.
Enhancement Mantra - Increases Stun Resist.
Invincibility Mantra - Recovers MP and increases Attack, Physical Defense, and Magic Boost.
Hit Mantra - Increases Crit Strike, Crit Spell, Strike Resist and Spell Resist

http://i.imgur.com/02bRTdb.jpg