Samurai changes are unacceptable in the current iteration

*looks at Tags of this Thread at the very bottom of the page* hmmm... >:

ive only recently come back to Samurai, definitely feeling the absence of Kaiten, but I'll hold back any criticism on the job until I feel it at lv 90.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

*looks at Tags of this Thread at the very bottom of the page* hmmm... >:

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Watch them get upset when they gut RDM eventually. No job is safe.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

ive only recently come back to Samurai, definitely feeling the absence of Kaiten, but I'll hold back any criticism on the job until I feel it at lv 90.

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It isn't much different. The burst might have a couple more things to do, but beyond that, the general rotation remains exactly the same as 60.

The kit is intact. It's just a little bit hollow, like a jenga tower had the wrong piece plucked and it's just waiting for a slight tremor to actually fall.

Revert SAM, please SE say something. Say anything about SAM. This was one of your most popular jobs. What did you do?

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Originally Posted by YellowLine

Watch them get upset when they gut RDM eventually. No job is safe.

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Plzno. Let me feel safe because my job is simple but dull.

I would like to know why they removed Kaiten over something like Shoha. If anything Shoha is more of a shoe in that takes zero skill to use and is just another button that someone has to press, vs Kaiten which is an actual skill that takes practice to use right. That and the job already has OGCDs that someone has to track that are based on the kenki gauge.

In fact, they didn't just NOT remove Shoha, they added another Shoha for AOEs during 80-90, so instead of stopping button bloat, they actually added more back and it isn't even a good skill. FYI, I'm not talking that it lacks potency, but it is just not special in any way.

I'd like to see them implement the Drawout system from FFT for Samurai or some new sword based job, but preferably Samurai.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

I'd like to see them implement the Drawout system from FFT for Samurai or some new sword based job, but preferably Samurai.

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That'd be interesting. But I dunno how that'd translate given how the job currently is. Unless they do a complete rework of the job like they did to mch, which.. I think that'd be more damning than anything else given how vocal folks were the moment they mentioned kaiten being removed.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

That'd be interesting. But I dunno how that'd translate given how the job currently is. Unless they do a complete rework of the job like they did to mch, which.. I think that'd be more damning than anything else given how vocal folks were the moment they mentioned kaiten being removed.

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Big true here. The removal of Kaiten (and the addition of auto-crits, and the change to Tenka) was bad, BUT! if SE had been transparent about all of this, with showcases of what SAM would become and how the overall feel of the gameplay would be preserved AND it was done in an appropriate manner - i.e. not in the middle of an already-released xpac, but rather in the lead-up to a new xpac - then I think people would have been much more amenable to the idea of Kaiten being removed. As it stands now though, they did literally everything wrong. They managed to take a job with high player satisfaction and good performance, both solo and in a group, and gut it of all interesting gameplay elements, kill team synergy, crash both the skill ceiling AND floor into the sewer and all of this happened in the middle of an xpac mere weeks before the most-anticipated end-game content was set to release.

It's just such a series of errors that I cannot fathom how such decisions passed muster. I can only imagine that Yoshi P. is focusing more of his attention on FF16, to the obvious detriment of FF14. So instead of being met with a modicum of optimism and faith for the future, SAM players got kneecapped from out of left fucking field before being given vague promises of "something better" at some indeterminate point in the future. We lost many things and gained nothing in return, and half of why people have reacted so strongly against these changes is the way in which they were handled.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Big true here. The removal of Kaiten (and the addition of auto-crits, and the change to Tenka) was bad, BUT! if SE had been transparent about all of this, with showcases of what SAM would become and how the overall feel of the gameplay would be preserved AND it was done in an appropriate manner - i.e. not in the middle of an already-released xpac, but rather in the lead-up to a new xpac

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There is literally zero reason to do changes incrementally to lead to a design change for a job. Literally none. They either should have done the full revamp or nothing at all. Having said that I agree with the rest of your post =)

They won't give me back my chocolate bar! Give it back to me!

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

They won't give me back my chocolate bar! Give it back to me!

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Wow look! Another useless post! By none other than the...wait who are you again?

Anyways, some activity picked up since the liveletter announcement. People are once again stating their hopes for the patch. Let's all do the same and look forward to what they have to say.

Ended up talking with some of my RL friends who played Samurai since Stormblood and the feedback was rather interesting to say the least. They actually all dropped Sam during Shadowbringers because they disliked the direction they went with the job. One of them didn't like Tsubame-Gaeshi since it felt like they were just trying to make some Knock off sword art online combo instead of a legit samurai.

Also they didn't like the idea of Kaiten being removed either and said they'd wished they pruned some other skill that was basically pointless.

I think that it is good that they are attempting to manage rotations and making sure they don't get too complicated for newer players, but I kind of see the point of people who liked Stormblood samurai and now I'm looking at reaper and realizing they are going to make it more complicated next expansion for sure. :(

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Ended up talking with some of my RL friends who played Samurai since Stormblood and the feedback was rather interesting to say the least. They actually all dropped Sam during Shadowbringers because they disliked the direction they went with the job. One of them didn't like Tsubame-Gaeshi since it felt like they were just trying to make some Knock off sword art online combo instead of a legit samurai.

Also they didn't like the idea of Kaiten being removed either and said they'd wished they pruned some other skill that was basically pointless.

I think that it is good that they are attempting to manage rotations and making sure they don't get too complicated for newer players, but I kind of see the point of people who liked Stormblood samurai and now I'm looking at reaper and realizing they are going to make it more complicated next expansion for sure. :(

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While I'll agree that Tsubame Gaeshi won't appeal to everyone, I will say that giving it a second charge was most definitely a mistake and they should've just done something more meaningful with Meditation stacks. What would be more meaningful? I'm not sure, but I think if they're really going to go about expanding the SAM kit, that's probably the best place to start since everything else (with Kaiten included) was nearly perfectly designed. Everything had purpose and Meditation was just kind of... there.

I think expanding it in some way would be the best direction they can go. Make it more involved or give it it's own unique evolving button like the iaijutsu does. That would at least remove the issue of having two separate buttons/skills that functionally do the same in st/aoe decisions. If they don't want to combine it into a single skill with falloff, then that's the only way I think helps deal with the complaints against shoha 2 being lazy and the supposed button bloat that some folks have.

Meditation feels like the prototype to what Reaper has in it's kit. The move is there to be used when the samurai can do literally nothing else but stand looking pretty, so it always feels like a bit of a tacked on skill.

The problem with all the jobs is that they often start out having a good core, and then to make the job feel like it is breaking new limits, they throw on a bunch of extra stuff that does big flashy things, which just amount to some big hit.

Samurai at the core is rotating two buffs, one to increase attack speed and the other to increase damage, while doing combos and either filling up to do a DOT via Higabana or doing a big hit with all three charges. If they just stuck to this game plan and left Kaiten in there the job would have been fine. But then they added in Tsubame-Gaeshi and Shoha on top of balancing Shintens with remembering to always hit Senei.

This has been an eternal problem with their design team. They always add attacks even if the job is doing JUST FINE without them. They want to add them in, because "we got to make this new and fresh" like a pine tree every damn time a new expansion comes out, and then you got the mains either loving it because they only play samurai and basically one other job, and the other people being indifferent or disliking everything.

You'd think removing an ability would net the opposite result, where the mains hate the change and the people who don't main it but play more on and off would think it's great, but it's mostly just silence on one side and the other is grumbling. Again, I'd pin the blame on just over bloating jobs with useless capstone abilities all for the sake of flash and no substance. That's the name of the game of Shadowbringers forward, and I've had my fill of it to be frank.

This isn't to say that they haven't had good things come out of it. Warrior is definitely vastly better than it was in Shadowbringers and Dark Knight is improving as well. But sometimes I just feel like the teams don't really know what is a good game plan or not. If someone came to me and told me to make samurai flashier, would I add a new skill or just upgrade the visuals on the job and boost the potency with a trait? I'd probably have just boosted the potency with a trait and updated the visual effect of some existing capstone.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

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I meant meditation as a whole should be improved and expanded. Not just the channel button we're meant to use in downtime. I mean the entire thing, from the stacks to the shoha and shoha 2, those could be expanded and improved and just overall cleaned up more.

While yes, I can see the idea that more attacks from capstones can become bloat, and they kind of have with it. The main 'bloat' issue is that half the things that have been added on SAM are redundant and meant specifically for situational st or aoe. While not bad in its own right, the fact that they're redundant means that they can be trimmed to still serve the same purpose if they went about the structure a little differently.

You bring up WAR a few times so let's roll with that. Senei and Guren are typically only used right after Ikishoten to keep their cooldowns aligned. They're basically just more powerful nuke versions of your filler kenki spender, so why not do what WAR did with Infuriate changing fell cleave and decimate into Inner Chaos and chaotic cyclone and have Shinten and Kyuten evolve into those While under the effect of Ikishoten? That both cleans up space on the bar and makes for less drift mistakes if they really want to baby proof the game so much.

A similar argument could be made to have Meditation stacks affect our kenki spenders to evolve those as well if not give it its own dedicated button to use. People tell me that Shinten/Kyuten wouldn't translate well into Senei/Guren because guren is a line while kyuten is a circle. Well shoha 2 is a circle, there's an idea right there. Again, cleans up space on the bar and maintains all current actions while reducing drift mistakes.

There's so many ideas they could have gone but seemingly kaiten was the problem? If they really think that then they should look again and really dive into what the job can do.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Meditation feels like the prototype to what Reaper has in it's kit. The move is there to be used when the samurai can do literally nothing else but stand looking pretty, so it always feels like a bit of a tacked on skill.

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Meditate has been with us. It's not a perfect skill, but during downtime or transitions it's there to be used that affects what you're going to Kaiten or when exactly you're going to Ikishoten to not overcap or wait well we don't have Kaiten anymore...

I literally use Meditate everytime I server transfer from 1 to the other or when the party queues us in as I fancy teleport in or even before a fight starts as the count down is set to 20 seconds. How useful is all of that? completely useless, I just find it fun.

But if you want an example of Meditate being used " TO GO FURTHER AND BEYOND !!! " <- click this

According to the Balance's Live Letter's translation, they apparently mentioned delaying the AST and DRG changes because are still "wary" from the SAM reactions. So despite their silence, they've clearly heard the feedback. The real question now is are they planning on doing anything about it? My heart still has hope but my mind is telling me no.

Another note, I've been progging DSR on WHM and some of the direct hit crit Miseries I've been getting bring back that SAM feeling they took away.

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Originally Posted by Akava

According to the Balance's Live Letter's translation, they apparently mentioned delaying the AST and DRG changes because are still "wary" from the SAM reactions. So despite their silence, they've clearly heard the feedback. The real question now is are they planning on doing anything about it? My heart still has hope but my mind is telling me no.

Another note, I've been progging DSR on WHM and some of the direct hit crit Miseries I've been getting bring back that SAM feeling they took away.

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Yeah . . . I think at best we can expect no further changes for other jobs in the EW time frame (maybe towards the end of the expac) but I don't think they are going to change the SAM changes. If they were they would have mentioned it already. I've made peace with not returning to the game since SE doesn't seem to want to go back to how the job was. What a freakin' shame.

they're gonna "explain intentions behind job adjustments" which is just code for "we know better than you, shut up".

Ok, so, the ex-wife always used to say I was "too optimistic." That I always expected too much good from people and the world in general.

Having said that, I think the response to the DRG/AST changes, specifically how they are "wary" and have pushed them back, is a sign for hope. It means they have at least seen the backlash from the SAM (and likely NIN as well) communities regarding the changes and that this both (somehow) caught them by surprise AND that they are re-evaluating their position. This is cause for hope, correct? Yoshi P.? Because I would really hate for you to prove the ex-wife right.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

they're gonna "explain intentions behind job adjustments" which is just code for "we know better than you, shut up".

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Pretty much. When interviewed in late SB going into ShB, someone brought up the gutting of SCH to Yoshida and he basically said "SCHs DPS too much and don't heal, but dont worry we're going to really increase healing requirements so you won't notice" and we all know that was a lie. Their "intentions" often have zero basis in reality, much like "button bloat" or "action bloat" when it came to Kaiten. It's a good step to start explaining intentions behind job changes, but I have a feeling whatever they say is going to end up being more of their parallel reality nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

It's a good step to start explaining intentions behind job changes, but I have a feeling whatever they say is going to end up being more of their parallel reality nonsense.

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Yeah, this was my feeling too. Like I've been seeing people say "oh it's good that they're explaining stuff" but like, just their Kaiten change got like four explanations and all of them got torn apart within minutes. So it'll either be some shit explanation or a flippant dismissal like "go play ultimate".

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Yeah, this was my feeling too. Like I've been seeing people say "oh it's good that they're explaining stuff" but like, just their Kaiten change got like four explanations and all of them got torn apart within minutes. So it'll either be some shit explanation or a flippant dismissal like "go play ultimate".

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"Go play ultimate", you mean the thing that's a series of short 3 minute fights roughly with frequent breaks in between them so bosses can do mechanics...And samurai's lack good burst on now with no group synergy?

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

"Go play ultimate", you mean the thing that's a series of short 3 minute fights roughly with frequent breaks in between them so bosses can do mechanics...And samurai's lack good burst on now with no group synergy?

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I feel like this isn't talked about enough. I enjoyed progging the ultimate but I really don't like the whole 7 extremely short phases with little identity to them and a lot of breaks in-between them. It was definitely more enjoyable than ucob and uwu to me but I really hope they don't continue with the current mini phase approach to ultimates

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

"Go play ultimate", you mean the thing that's a series of short 3 minute fights roughly with frequent breaks in between them so bosses can do mechanics...And samurai's lack good burst on now with no group synergy?

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It's even more hilarious and out of touch for healers because they said that to answer healers complaining about their braindead DPS rotation, implying that its okay for healers to only have glare/aero because the heal checks in the hardest content in the game will distract you from having only 2 sad buttons to spam 90% of the time. But even in Ultimate as a healer you spend 3/4 of your time DPSing, BY DESIGN. You need that healer DPS to pass DPS checks in a newly released ultimate fight.

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

I feel like this isn't talked about enough. I enjoyed progging the ultimate but I really don't like the whole 7 extremely short phases with little identity to them and a lot of breaks in-between them. It was definitely more enjoyable than ucob and uwu to me but I really hope they don't continue with the current mini phase approach to ultimates

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It really isn't. A varied approach to an ultimate would be more ideal, but short fights like this basically favor certain things over others due to the nature of how quick the fights go. Plus it's just...A little overdone at this point too. A big 'ol boss can still be a good design for it too, or two bosses, or three. But these short 2-3 minute fights...Mmm, I'm ready for a new style.

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Originally Posted by Hezhi

It's even more hilarious and out of touch for healers because they said that to answer healers complaining about their braindead DPS rotation, implying that its okay for healers to only have glare/aero because the heal checks in the hardest content in the game will distract you from having only 2 sad buttons to spam 90% of the time. But even in Ultimate as a healer you spend 3/4 of your time DPSing, BY DESIGN. You need that healer DPS to pass DPS checks in a newly released ultimate fight.

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And then the fight was solo healed. Make of it what you will, but proper planning makes even the hardest checks seem mundane. They could definitely afford to beef up the healer kits some more with something more than just "cast glare/equivalent and don't forget to castt dia/your dot equivalent on ever 30 seconds". I don't see what's wrong with giving healers something more to do and rewarding them for good play.

Bumping thread. It's more relevant than the newer ones asking for more of the same.

Have a good day

People don’t want to have to wait many months at a time for an unwanted action removal to be reverted; I understand it’s not an instant coding process, but jobs have had mechanical changes between major patches before, and the Kaiten code is still accessible in revision history.

Something was working, it gets taken away, and some players tell other players that they should quietly wait four months to simply find out whether it will added back, and that’s expected to be met with universal agreement? I think the selective lack of communication understandably has led to tension between the developers and players; heck, even if they outright would just say that they’re keeping Kaiten removed and no amount of people expressing requested feedback would change that, that certainty would be a better response that the uncertainty that comes with total silence.

I doubt its a coding issue. If they really wanted to they could revert it in the next patch. The issue is balance and not disrupting current content. They rarely make major changes to any job during any current content and that content right now is DSR which they wont mess with. 6.2 brings new end game and that is when we'll see changes to a lot of jobs.

Hey Square Enix, I just wanted to remind you that you promised an explanation twice now. You can at least have one of your forum staff write three words, "We hear you", to at least show that you somewhat care. Write it in Japanese, that's fine too. Being vague just doesn't work and I'm tired of it and so is everyone else. For YoshiP's vision of the game being a theme park for all types of players to enjoy, you've failed spectacularly. The game is amazing in so many ways, but job design and combat has gone too far in one direction.

It'd be nice if we could hear *something* regarding what devs think so far about the recent changes they made. Do they think kaiten should come back? Do they think SAM is fine without kaiten? Any kind of response would be good so that we could know what they think about the SAM's current direction.

Bump for exposure, 6.2 is approaching. Praying for Kaiten.

Live-Letter was a let down to no surprise, yet a delay of the DRG and AST.

The thread title still rings truthfully, changes that were unacceptable of which fixed nothing other then some damage fluctuations that didn't prevent any player from clearing anything nor made the job any less or more accessible then it already was. No response in 4 months, with their words " try it out " and " give us feedback ", which is rich. If they do want to put Samurai as a good example of what a burst melee caster should be? turning our high-highs into mediocre average lows? then the other jobs who love their big hits can just expect the same thing to happen i.e Ninja / Monk / Dragoon / Reaper heck even Dark Knight opener probably needs a change by Square's logic if that's the case. I hope not, I don't wish another job to suffer. I does nothing for us as a whole.

Then again, I am expecting the worse at this point. Can you blame me?

https://i.imgur.com/8xPJizd.png

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Originally Posted by Hezhi

It's even more hilarious and out of touch for healers because they said that to answer healers complaining about their braindead DPS rotation, implying that its okay for healers to only have glare/aero because the heal checks in the hardest content in the game will distract you from having only 2 sad buttons to spam 90% of the time. But even in Ultimate as a healer you spend 3/4 of your time DPSing, BY DESIGN. You need that healer DPS to pass DPS checks in a newly released ultimate fight.

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There hasn't been a dps check in the game since HW. It's literally as hard as you make it. Bad at your job? Dps check. A group of 8 mediocre players? Where's the DPS check? Spamming succor is good healer gameplay doesn't anyone know?

Bumping thread because I agreed with them.

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Originally Posted by Kira_Yaeger

There hasn't been a dps check in the game since HW. It's literally as hard as you make it. Bad at your job? Dps check. A group of 8 mediocre players? Where's the DPS check? Spamming succor is good healer gameplay doesn't anyone know?

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What? Savage raids have a hard enrage timer lol. There's still dps checks in the game.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/467713

"In previous Letter LIVEs, we mentioned that dragoon and astrologian would receive extensive adjustments in Patch 6.2; however, we’ll be postponing these adjustments based on the feedback we’ve received since Patch 6.1. Making extensive adjustments to a job on a fundamental level would involve numerous changes. The sheer number of changes would make it difficult to fully explain our intentions for each one, so we believe we should wait for an expansion release to make adjustments of that scale. With that said, rest assured we’ll continue to make minor adjustments."

Well, the hopium was real it seems. Good luck SAM mains, keep fighting. Regardless I'm still concerned about why they would want to allegedly fundamentally change DRG.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/467713

"In previous Letter LIVEs, we mentioned that dragoon and astrologian would receive extensive adjustments in Patch 6.2; however, we’ll be postponing these adjustments based on the feedback we’ve received since Patch 6.1. Making extensive adjustments to a job on a fundamental level would involve numerous changes. The sheer number of changes would make it difficult to fully explain our intentions for each one, so we believe we should wait for an expansion release to make adjustments of that scale. With that said, rest assured we’ll continue to make minor adjustments."

Well, the hopium was real it seems. Good luck SAM mains, keep fighting. Regardless I'm still concerned about why they would want to allegedly fundamentally change DRG.

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RIP SAM and RIP FFXIV for me . . . fuck SE what a god damn travesty.