Character Creation Has A Race Problem

Maybe we should campaign to get more hairstyles more often...I noticed they seem to have slowed down in releasing new ones, maybe I am seeing it wrong, but it just seems that way to me since SB released.

I'm sure SE are working on their next straight hair variant as we speak.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

But on the flip side of this, many people have been clamoring in this thread that there is no reason to bring RL into the game. That argument just makes me scratch my head as there are SO many things inspired from real world things (not just in Stormblood), but heaven help you if you're asking for slightly more diverse character creation options as that is obviously stepping over the line.

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You see, there's a slight difference in these two things. Namely...who draws the inspiration.

In the case of Kugane and other in-game stuff, it was the developers drawing inspirations to match their story, its aesthetics.
In the case of skin color, it's the people that want to implement THEIR OWN aesthetics into the story.

Now, there is nothing wrong with suggestion whatsoever. The game is a business. We're being told painfully clearly that this game is not made for any reason other than to earn a buck by all sorts of things, sometimes more directly. As such, following clients suggestions that increase their satisfaction without really harming much at all is reasonable.

However, one needs to still remember that the aesthetics of the story are a significant part of it. The reason why we don't have these options may be because of technical difficulties, a result of cutting on budget or because they don't really match the story in its makers opinion. Then there are also options like them simply not thinking there would be demand for it, forgetting about it or thinking that the currently available options would have been satisfying.


So it's not the problem with the suggestion, but with the form. Clients simply don't have the right to demand real-world inspirations and existence of such in a story is no excuse.

I won't name the game, but I guess most everyone will know. There was a game that was aiming for a significant realism of a certain part of history of a region of the world that, at the time presented, had virtually no non-white people. Like, if there WERE any, they were so few that majority of the region wouldn't ever come across them (heck, living pretty close to that region now, having nearly 30 years, I saw maybe a handful of non-white people with my own eyes in real life where I live!). And organizations of "people of color" were literally clamoring about the studio being racist because there are no non-white people in the game. They demanded a significant presence.

Ironic, really. What does "people of color" really mean?! Seriously, "black" is lack of color, while "white" is a compilation of all colors in one. That phrase itself seems to be more racist than most of the stuff that many of the people crying "discrimination" claim, seeing as it suggest that white people are "colorless", from which one can derive "empty". Now, do you see how that works? Should I now make demands that I want this or that because I'm in the minority of the world (it appears that Caucasian people constitute about 33% of the world, while Mongoloids about 31% of the world...then there are other in-between etc.)?
Of course...the offense part is an add-on, but I really do have issues with the term "people of color".


In other words...As I said before, if someone wants new variations of face structures and skin tones, no one would have any issue with those suggestions (except possibly saying that the developers time would be better spent elsewhere, which is what pops-up with basically any glamour suggestion ever made). Yet no one seems to be interested in making such a thread. One that is strictly about the essence of the suggestion.

This one will NOT work. It will die out very quickly or random people will pop-up and bring up the racial stuff once again. It's natural. People will NOT care that it was hammered for 50+ pages. Most will read only the original post and maybe few past that (some don't even read past that) and it'll be good if few of the last posts. They will skip all that was said before and will bring the tone back to the flames.


Remember. We pay, but we are not entitled to demands. Square Enix offers a product, not their servitude. Customers don't hire Square Enix, we pay them for a product that comes as-is. Any thread or post made needs to reflect that fact.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Ironic, really. What does "people of color" really mean?! Seriously, "black" is lack of color, while "white" is a compilation of all colors in one. That phrase itself seems to be more racist than most of the stuff that many of the people crying "discrimination" claim, seeing as it suggest that white people are "colorless", from which one can derive "empty". Now, do you see how that works?

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Going by the American use of the word, its generally accepted as a reclamation of the word “colored”, which had been used as an derogatory term for non-white people (predominantly those of african heritage, essentially separating them by degrees of skin tone) till the American Civil rights movement. It has nothing to do with light spectrums.

https://meetedgar.com/wp-content/upl...e-You-Know.gif

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Going by the American use of the word, its generally accepted as a reclamation of the word “colored”, which had been used as an derogatory term for non-white people (predominantly those of african heritage, essentially separating them by degrees of skin tone) till the American Civil rights movement. It has nothing to do with light spectrums.

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In american parlance, the descriptors for those of african decent has evolved over the decades. At one point in time, "colored" was not a derogotory term (the NAACP has it literally in their name), same with "negro". Over time, however, it was used more as a slur, and thus new descriptors were created over time to describe those of african decent.

The newer term of "People of Color" is, from what I have observed most frequently, not a means of reclaiming the word colored, but rather an all encompassing term to refer to non white groups (this being asian, hispanic, black, etc). Ive seen a few people argue that it is exclusively people who are of a specific skin tone, and would exclude white-hispanics, some asians with paler complexions, and whites.

Problem with the term "PoC" is that it is not used consistently among activist organizations and political groups. This is probably because what qualifies as 'brown/black' enough tends to get subjective to certain groups.

In any case, broadly speaking, not all these terms last long term. Afro-american and its derivation of African-American (or black-american in some communities), have had some pretty long standing usages fairly consistently as being fairly politically correct and inoffensive. Meaning, new terms get invented, but people over time keep going back to African American.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse, but I think it's pretty obvious that SE has taken some pretty big inspiration from Japan as well as Eastern culture in general with Stomblood. Of course the game has it's own lore, but then we see Japanese housing structures all over, kimonos, Vietnamese clothing / food options, and I'm sure plenty of other items I'm neglecting to mention.

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Inspiration is inspiration in the end it’s a game with seperate lore from IRL. You can not look at kugane and say it is Japan it doesn’t work that way. How do you look at dreads in a game and say that’s black? It’s a game. And all this talk of what a black face looks like. What does a black face look like? White face? Asian face? Ect... because I don’t know. I have not seen people IRL who have the same face or even facial features people are defining as black I have seen on people of other races. What’s wrong with posting a suggestion thread like everyone else and not screaming race? It has nothing to do with race it’s just a limited character creation. Post a picture of the hairstyles and say “I would love to see something like this added” or ask for fuller lips in character creator. Don’t start a race war about it for no reason when it’s 100% unneeded to bring that into a game that doesn’t have IRL races. But I guess you do you. Enjoy the GAME!

Ps. I feel the heavy Asian culture references in this game might have to do with the fact it’s a Japanese game. I could be wrong but seems pretty common when a game comes from a specific area, you copy what you know.

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Originally Posted by MaloraYuki

Inspiration is inspiration in the end it’s a game with seperate lore from IRL. You can not look at kugane and say it is Japan it doesn’t work that way.

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Ill just reiterate a point I made way earlier in this thread:

"All 'races' in FFXIV are mix and matches of features in real world races with an anime slant, and are not designed to be a direct representation of any single particular race. You can pretty much get this by actually looking at the stock facial features (ignore skin color for the moment) of the races and even with tweaking, you cant get a 1:1 "this is an European/Asian/African/Etc" person. You can get close, but things will be slightly off or 'mismatched'. Now, throw in the fact that virtually all races can come in the almost entire gamut of skin colors, and you can end up with interesting combinations as a result. You can drive this point home by looking at teh lore of all the races. You cant really pin it to any specific ethnicity/nationality. Theyre all mixes of a few cultural elements from different societies."

When talking about places in this game, theyre not "This is Japan, This Is China, This is Germany, This is England, This is Ethiopia, This is Saudi Arabia". Theyre mix and matches of all sorts of things and places to create a new look and feel, as mentioned in the quoted post. Its the same for the 'races.' There is no 1:1 here, and there isnt supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Ill just reiterate a point I made way earlier in this thread:

"All 'races' in FFXIV are mix and matches of features in real world races with an anime slant, and are not designed to be a direct representation of any single particular race. You can pretty much get this by actually looking at the stock facial features (ignore skin color for the moment) of the races and even with tweaking, you cant get a 1:1 "this is an European/Asian/African/Etc" person. You can get close, but things will be slightly off or 'mismatched'. Now, throw in the fact that virtually all races can come in the almost entire gamut of skin colors, and you can end up with interesting combinations as a result. You can drive this point home by looking at teh lore of all the races. You cant really pin it to any specific ethnicity/nationality. Theyre all mixes of a few cultural elements from different societies."

When talking about places in this game, theyre not "This is Japan, This Is China, This is Germany, This is England, This is Ethiopia, This is Saudi Arabia". Theyre mix and matches of all sorts of things and places to create a new look and feel, as mentioned in the quoted post. Its the same for the 'races.' There is no 1:1 here, and there isnt supposed to be.

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Well yeah I mean kind of my point it’s a game with different lore. Inspiration is different from IRL. As I said you can’t look at kugane and say that’s Japan because it’s not. And you are right it isn’t suppose to be. Can’t look at a highlander and say they are meant to be black because they aren’t suppose to be. Technically they can be any color. Lyse, yda, and minfillia are highlanders by lore, they are on the wrong model but they are highlanders with a lighter skin tone. The facial features and hairstyles people want just need to be added with the long lists of requests from everyone else. Or I mean if you have artistic talent enter contests.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

It has nothing to do with light spectrums.

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I know it have nothing to do with lights spectrum and I did know what people mean by "people of color". Though I did not have any idea on where it originated from, so that's good to know.

My point is that this fancy little term uses very clearly defined words, then twists them into something nearly completely irrelevant to the origins of the word, THEN makes exclusions to that, fancy themselves prideful in being that (as part of a majority), while accusing the minority (if we consider the "people of color" as a group, that group constitutes ~67% of the world population) of them being discriminatory.

The whole concept there, the premises, are wrong. What's wrong with using non-white, non-Caucasian etc?! Seriously. Fighting fire with fire works, but fighting a bomb with a bomb does not.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I know it have nothing to do with lights spectrum and I did know what people mean by "people of color". Though I did not have any idea on where it originated from, so that's good to know.

My point is that this fancy little term uses very clearly defined terms, then twists them into something nearly completely irrelevant to the origins of the word, THEN makes exclusions to that, fancy themselves prideful in being that (as part of a majority), while accusing the minority (if we consider the "people of color" as a group, that group constitutes ~67% of the world population) of them being discriminatory.

The whole concept there, the premises, are wrong. What's wrong with using non-white, non-Caucasian etc?! Seriously. Fighting fire with fire works, but fighting a bomb with a bomb does not.

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Im no linguistics expert and thar be some buzzwords sprinkled in, please bear with me**: Historically it was used to unify “other” people, which why I think it continues to encompass a larger group of people. When you break “other” groups down into smaller groups you have a lot of folks vying for attention to their own cause which makes smaller groups goals less likely. Even amongst minority groups some are over represented vs others (a whole 'nother can of worms) but as a whole they tend to be underrepresented across various mediums of entertainment. I think people wanting to see themselves in [insert a thing here] is natural. I don't think it works in every situation, nor do I think demanding an insert in everything is the way to go, but I get the wanting.

a tl;dr: its Complicated™ because words, meanings, and racial relations all evolve over time.


** Personally, I don’t disagree with the fact that this is SE’s game and ultimately they can put whatever they want in their own game. Applying rl demographic breakdowns to a game where Genghis Khan’s stand-in is a 7 foot tall lizard man that rides a giant purple parrot is kinda moot, but at the same time I don’t think adding cornrows as a hair option would be particularly lorebreaking. But we're getting waaaay off topic here, so I'll end this with a picture of hair I'd want :)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2Lbo_sCQAA3do2.jpg

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I know it have nothing to do with lights spectrum and I did know what people mean by "people of color". Though I did not have any idea on where it originated from, so that's good to know.

My point is that this fancy little term uses very clearly defined terms, then twists them into something nearly completely irrelevant to the origins of the word, THEN makes exclusions to that, fancy themselves prideful in being that (as part of a majority), while accusing the minority (if we consider the "people of color" as a group, that group constitutes ~67% of the world population) of them being discriminatory.

The whole concept there, the premises, are wrong. What's wrong with using non-white, non-Caucasian etc?! Seriously. Fighting fire with fire works, but fighting a bomb with a bomb does not.

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If you can't tell what's wrong with what you just said, you're a lost cause. You're demonstrating the core underlying foundation of racism.

"I'm most important. Everything revolves around me, and everyone who doesn't look like me should he defined as being *not" like me."

Y'all can just come out and say you don't want black characters in your fantasy game, because it seems a lot easier than tying yourselves into Gordian knots trying to come up with excuses.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

I mean they invented Ivalice now. Now we can apparently have Vieras, Bangaas, and Seeq... suddenly.

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Ivalice has been around for a very long time, ever since Final Fantasy Tactics came out for the Playstation in 1998 (and later for Playstation Portable in 2007). Viera, Bangaa and Seeq have also been around for quite a while starting with Final Fantasy Tactics Advance for the Gameboy Advance in 2003, Final Fantasy XII for the Playstation 2 in 2006 and Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2 for the Nintendo DS in 2007. All of which takes place in Ivalice.

first off this game company is Japanese in base so their are Asia so by very concept their are non Caucasians. second the comment made about use non Caucasian can be still consider racist( really world dislike for my race isn't right thing). the issue here isn't video games it the fact you desire bring political view into video games. this where issue lines up let talk about the fact that ffxiv people are very different Miq'ta to Au'Ra to the Elvaan to Laflaf to many other ffxiv races if we evenaulty have Veira.. FFXIV by it very nature is the world is melting pot of different culture and races and culture all row into one.

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Originally Posted by Raou

Y'all can just come out and say you don't want black characters in your fantasy game, because it seems a lot easier than tying yourselves into Gordian knots trying to come up with excuses.

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Is your arm okay? That was such a huge reach.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Is your arm okay? That was such a huge reach.

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Doesn't really seem like much of a reach considering the newest argument boils down to "PoC aren't lore-friendly".

This topic should've been deleted. The op made a clickbait topic and now everything is blowing up. The game is not racist. There is no race issue. The only thing here like I said before is every character in the game is limited. Yes can we use more hairs or course. But let's stop with this plotline that a Japanese company is going to understand or even try to cater to one race outside their own. I mean do we as Americans do that? No. But that's another topic that doesn't need to be here. Yes to more options but no that doesn't mean ffxiv is freaking racist.

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Originally Posted by ko_

This topic should've been deleted. The op made a clickbait topic and now everything is blowing up. The game is not racist. There is no race issue. The only thing here like I said before is every character in the game is limited. Yes can we use more hairs or course. But let's stop with this plotline that a Japanese company is going to understand or even try to cater to one race outside their own. I mean do we as Americans do that? No. But that's another topic that doesn't need to be here. Yes to more options but no that doesn't mean ffxiv is freaking racist.

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Quoted for truth

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Originally Posted by Anatha

If you can't tell what's wrong with what you just said, you're a lost cause. You're demonstrating the core underlying foundation of racism.

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Hm?! I'm racist because I said that giving fancy terms (incorrect in the use of the words it's made from) to certain groups of people just because they feel oppressed (don't get me wrong, many are oppressed, but many white people are oppressed too) is bad?! Huh?!

Do you even know what "language" is? Each word have a definition. Using existing words with definitions to form a term that relates to but completely twists these meanings, then using it for some ideological reason when the words are neutral, is bad.

Someone feeling or even being oppressed doesn't give them the right to destroy parts of culture, be it their own or that of another.

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Originally Posted by Anatha

"I'm most important. Everything revolves around me, and everyone who doesn't look like me should he defined as being *not" like me."

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Buy a dictionary, or at least use one of the online ones. This would fall under the definition of "egoism" (for the "I'm most important") and "narcissism" (for the "defined as being 'not' like me"). Neither have anything to do with racism. And on a local scale, the first part isn't even that. To an individual, they are the most important (with rare exceptions) and that is perfectly normal. Humanity is coded to pass their DNA above everyone else. The question is whether the "I'm most important" comes at the price of "so let's ruin those others people lives to make mine better" or "but everyone else have the right to lead a good life too".


I personally couldn't care less whether a game allows any particular skin color or facial features, so long as it have acceptable (aka realistic) proportions. I'll play whatever the developer decides to serve. Ironically, if I have a choice of human-like character, I'll pick Asiatic (I'm European) female (I'm male)...so a huge miss on that front from you.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Someone lacks reading comprehension. I already mentioned the skin colors are off and skin color alone does not a race make. But I’m sure you’re represented and have no problems with the game reflecting you in real life, just not others

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I get what you mean but honestly, your thread would been much more received if you simply titled it "can we have more customization options" Then in the post explain why you can't get what you have visioned. I really do not think a RL race war comparison is fair with this.

Oh it's who the most oppressed fantasy race mmo award time of the year. Well I'm elven so naturally were the most oppressed race in most games anyways so now give me more beards choices >.>

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Originally Posted by Raou

Doesn't really seem like much of a reach considering the newest argument boils down to "PoC aren't lore-friendly".

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We don't decide what is canonical, the devs do. There is a difference between saying "I would like any large scale changes to character creation to fit within established lore" and "keep black people out of this video game" but you seem to be conflating the two.

If the area to the south of the Sagolii prooves to be an African-styled location then cool, toss it in the game. If not then no I don't think they should change estaished lore for some offended, entitled children.

Ironically the same people arguing that they want this are the ones likely keeping it from happening since they would be whining about cultural appropriation if SE did implement such changes.

The thread that will not die! As a Latino I generally make my Heroes: males, either a ginger because sexy reasons or Latino looking like myself. My main is tall, dark, and handsome hehe. Most Devs give a cornucopia of options but one has to realize the entire world does not revolve around us so we have to make do with what is presented. SE is a Japanese based company so I realize their views on diversity are quite different than the melting pot countries like USA, England, and etc...

Saying it is a "race" problem is asking for a flame war though.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Ironically the same people arguing that they want this are the ones likely keeping it from happening since they would be whining about cultural appropriation if SE did implement such changes.

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Good job in keeping this spicy "war" going with baseless assertions like the above.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Don't sit here and try to portray the OP as the victim - she dug herself in that hole and seemingly moved on to different pastures when it was clear she wasn't going to be able to bring herself out of this hole - something that you haven't figured out as of yet.

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KaivaC, darling. . . I have something called a life. I haven't dug myself into any hole, I still 100% stand by everything I've stated, and will continue to. However I'm also not going to argue the same points repeatedly.

With that being said, the thread was actually getting somewhere finally until things for whatever reason took a shift again. But I can't help but find it funny that many of you are saying that no one has a problem with the suggestions that could be added to the character customization, but when people talk about the suggestions, you go on to say why those suggestions can't be implemented because "this is a fantasy game" or "there are no real life equivalents to Africa." Seems to me people are against the idea. I'm going to need for you all to remain consistent. Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

I already posted four videos referencing what I'm referring to as I was told that the burden of proof was on me, yet very few people actually mentioned those videos.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

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Willfully construing your oppositions positions as bigoted or racist does not garner favor among the very people you are trying to persuade.

And INB4 "Oh but I dont care if I persuade them!"

Then all youre attempting to do is preach to the choir if your whole point is to have a discussion and expect everyone to agree with you. Im assuming you didnt make that thread for the purpose of hearing your own voice and everyone applauding you, but rather to express your view and either demonstrate or convince others of your view. You know, what typical forum style conversations are built upon.

So yeah, resorting to proclaiming people dont want 'x' while implying racism and bigotry isnt serving your point, and comes across more as "Imma throw up my arms and just call you all names cause Im tired of the discussion."

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Willfully construing your oppositions positions as bigoted or racist does not garner favor among the very people you are trying to persuade.

And INB4 "Oh but I dont care if I persuade them!"

Then all youre attempting to do is preach to the choir if your whole point is to have a discussion and expect everyone to agree with you. Im assuming you didnt make that thread for the purpose of hearing your own voice and everyone applauding you, but rather to express your view and either demonstrate or convince others of your view. You know, what typical forum style conversations are built upon.

So yeah, resorting to proclaiming people dont want 'x' while implying racism and bigotry isnt serving your point, and comes across more as "Imma throw up my arms and just call you all names cause Im tired of the discussion."

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The question was really asked to SE, tbh. I don't care whether people agree or not, there have been people who disagreed and we're cool. I've had very productive dialogues with those people, but those people were consistent in their argument. They didn't accuse me of a stupid "race war", being divisive, they didn't argue semantics, or any of that other BS, which is why my responses to them are markedly nicer. Notice it's really only the same group of people doing that.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

The question was really asked to SE, tbh. I don't care whether people agree or not, there have been people who disagreed and we're cool. I've had very productive dialogues with those people, but those people were consistent in their argument. They didn't accuse me of a stupid "race war", being divisive, they didn't argue semantics, or any of that other BS, which is why my responses to them are markedly nicer. Notice it's really only the same group of people doing that.

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This actually complicates things for you, not clarifies. Because based on the things you stated in your opener, as well as how you phrased them, it comes across as accusatory and with intent to inflame SE. So if your question was directed at SE, why would you phrase it and engage it the way you did? This actually supports my position: Construing your opposition as bigoted or racist isnt helpful in persuading them. If your question is directed at SE, creating a title named "Character-Creation-Has-A-Race-Problem" and then writing things like "I bring this up, because there are many black and brown people who play this game, yet the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white. Ironically, I don't even see Asian faces despite this being a Japanese game" is going to be seen by even the most moderate of Devs as inflammatory and divisive. Was this your intent?

Let me rephrase this: If you had a problem with a super market chain and the food they provide, do you go to their management and say "Hey, I noticed you guys dont carry this but I think this would be greatly appreciated." or do you say "Hey! This supermarket has a race problem. They dont have food for my black and brown friends, and theyre paying customers too!"

One brings it up about what owuld make the market better as a helpful suggestion, the other makes it a racial issue and implies bigotry and discrimination. Surely you dont think the latter is the ideal approach?

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

We don't decide what is canonical, the devs do. There is a difference between saying "I would like any large scale changes to character creation to fit within established lore" and "keep black people out of this video game" but you seem to be conflating the two.

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At least I can respond to all of the SJW talking points easier now - copy and paste for the win!

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

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And there I thought this thread wasn't about racism or discrimination yet now we have you openly accusing nearly every dissenting opinion of only having said opinion because discrimination. You really are a Tumblr meme.

I'll defer to my preceding post several pages back.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

"the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white."
"the character creator severely lacks in this game. Could we see improvements—perhaps fuller lips or larger noses? They really lack a variety in the presets."

I wonder how the conversation would have went had the second option been the OP's initial post~

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One of those quotes promotes discussion on actual game features. The other prompted a race war—one you've only proven to have wanted in the first place, otherwise you wouldn't be now accusing people of bigotry.

I'm still wondering what mental gymnastics y'all were doing to get RACE WAR out of the OP, cuz that's some major asspulling going on there.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

This actually complicates things for you, not clarifies. Because based on the things you stated in your opener, as well as how you phrased them, it comes across as accusatory and with intent to inflame SE. So if your question was directed at SE, why would you phrase it and engage it the way you did? This actually supports my position: Construing your opposition as bigoted or racist isnt helpful in persuading them. If your question is directed at SE, creating a title named "Character-Creation-Has-A-Race-Problem" and then writing things like "I bring this up, because there are many black and brown people who play this game, yet the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white. Ironically, I don't even see Asian faces despite this being a Japanese game" is going to be seen by even the most moderate of Devs as inflammatory and divisive. Was this your intent?

Let me rephrase this: If you had a problem with a super market chain and the food they provide, do you go to their management and say "Hey, I noticed you guys dont carry this but I think this would be greatly appreciated." or do you say "Hey! This supermarket has a race problem. They dont have food for my black and brown friends, and theyre paying customers too!"

One brings it up about what owuld make the market better as a helpful suggestion, the other makes it a racial issue and implies bigotry and discrimination. Surely you dont think the latter is the ideal approach?

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My intent was to let SE know that there are black and brown players who pay a sub, too, and we want A, B, C, and D. I feel the Hyur race has a problem because they're a human equivalent, but yet weren't diverse enough. And in previous pages we've already acknowledged that people have a problem with the way I phrased my words. In the previous pages I also clarified further and gave examples. At that point everything revolving around how I said it, and not the main topic, was BS. I'm not responsible for anyone's emotions. I'm responsible for my emotions; just as you're responsible for yours. If there was a misunderstanding of the intent, all they had to do is exactly what you did, and ask me, lol. There's no fuss. No argument. Nothing. Does this clarify things further or is there still a misunderstanding?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And there I thought this thread wasn't about racism or discrimination yet now we have you openly accusing nearly every dissenting opinion of only having said opinion because discrimination. You really are a Tumblr meme.

I'll defer to my preceding post several pages back.



One of those quotes promotes discussion on actual game features. The other prompted a race war—one you've only proven to have wanted in the first place, otherwise you wouldn't be now accusing people of bigotry.

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I asked for the features and people said "this is a fantasy game", "the game is diverse enough", "the game doesn't have to reflect real life". Therefor they didn't want the features. It's not that complicated to grasp. Then you have those saying they don't have a problem with the features, but then also use those same phrases, which is a contradiction.

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Originally Posted by Raou

I'm still wondering what mental gymnastics y'all were doing to get RACE WAR out of the OP, cuz that's some major asspulling going on there.

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Chile. . . I can't with some of these people here. Notice it's the same couple of people. I just wanna talk about more lips, noses, and hairstyles, and fixing that upper part of the skin color box. No one still said anything about the videos I posted demonstrating what I meant.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

I asked for the features and people said "this is a fantasy game", "the game is diverse enough", "the game doesn't have to reflect real life". Therefor they didn't want the features. It's not that complicated to grasp. Then you have those saying they don't have a problem with the features, but then also use those same phrases, which is a contradiction.

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No. You baked it into a racial issue. You didn't simply ask for fuller lips or bigger noses, you outright claimed SE only favours a white demographic and were indirectly racist. Your very title claims the game as a "race problem" not a "character creation problem." You set the tone, and have repeatedly doubled down despite a certain white-knight running to your defense. You keep digging that hole though. Eventually, you may see China.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

Chile. . . I can't with some of these people here. Notice it's the same couple of people. I just wanna talk about more lips, noses, and hairstyles, and fixing that upper part of the skin color box. No one still said anything about the videos I posted demonstrating what I meant.

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How about making a thread highlighting just those features next time and leave out the race baiting? Notice how no other thread has ever seen such a negative response despite asking for similar things? Yours is hardly the first asking for different hairstyles—some more commonly associated with other ethnicities. Only yours insisted the CC has a "race problem."

Your words. Not mine.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

My intent was to let SE know that there are black and brown players who pay a sub, too, and we want A, B, C, and D.

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You don't speak for me or any other person of color except yourself.

I think what Emistidor is getting at is that you're not the spokeswoman for all or just a few black and brown players, and that you really shouldn't be setting yourself up on this platform like you are, it'll come across as you assuming or speaking for other people that can probably, quite frankly, speak up very well for themselves, and some already have.

That's just my take on it.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I think what Emistidor is getting at is that you're not the spokeswoman for all or just a few black and brown players, and that you really shouldn't be setting yourself up on this platform like you are, it'll come across as you assuming or speaking for other people that can probably, quite frankly, speak up very well for themselves, and some already have.

That's just my take on it.

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I see what's being said, but I'm hardly the first person to speak on behalf of people. I'm not equating the issue, but just using an example, Martin Luther King spoke up for others. Nelson Mandela spoke up for others, etc. We have a whole Me Too movement going on where people are speaking up for people. We had gay marriage where people spoke up for people. While character creation in a video game is no where near as drastic or severe as those real life issues (and is very trite in comparison), I've never known it to be a problem to speak up for others. I acknowledge that there are black people who never wanted to be integrated, there are gay people who didn't want gay marriage or believed in it, there are women who can't stand the Me Too movement, but it doesn't change the fact that there were others who did and that their opponents still benefit from it. I can't expect to get these things if I don't call it out or speak up on it. I'm sure if we did get the other nose, lips, hair options; that there would be people who disagree with the premise now who may utilize them in the future. But if not, they still have the option to. Does that make sense?

The problem is more lip, nose and hair options isnt a racial issue, its a character creation issue. Thats where the problem is.

No one has said more lip, nose, and hair options is bad, people have said using "race issues" to request new options is bad.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The problem is more lip, nose and hair options isnt a racial issue, its a character creation issue. Thats where the problem is.

No one has said more lip, nose, and hair options is bad, people have said using "race issues" to request new options is bad.

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I know it's a character creation issue hence the title. I wanted to make a black girl but was extremely limited in my options to do so because of the way the character creator was set up on the Hyur. I don't know if you saw the videos I posted where you pretty much are just delegated to one hairstyle and the same nose and face combo.

At this point we can really just dead the thread, cause clearly everyone is perceiving the issue differently and we're getting nowhere.