As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

shitty word limit.

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1. They're eventually splitting up SCH/SMN entirely. :p And besides, it's not like we don't already have tons of copy/paste abilities in this game. Cure, Revive, most DoTs, Holy/Gravity...
2. Having one extra stance doesn't really make Healer gameplay any more interesting... it's just "Can I DPS without someone dying, yes, use it. No, stay out of it and heal." An interesting ability would be like an Astro card system where Balance wasn't by far the God of cards and Ewer/Spire/Spear each were relevant in every situation.
3. I'd be fine with Intelligence working on heals. Just reduce our current healing spell potencies and then add Healer exclusive traits so that they match the "real" potencies now.
4. And there can be something, something more interesting. It's not hard to design something superior to our current DPS/heal stance dance.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

And lastly, for the very last time, this game is NOT designed with Healer DPS in mind, it's designed with Tanks DPS and DPS DPS in mind, so that comparison doesn't even work.

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You say this as though it is fact, but it has no basis other than your own bias :P What Yoshi P said was that Healer and Tank DPS (note: you convieniently said that tank DPS was relevant for your own argument) is not taken into account when balancing fights. That is ALL that was said on the subject, please stop spreading misinformation.

As for what this means, it means that in order to produce minimum viable product, healers don't have to heal. If you want to be a terrible healer that can scrape through content putting out what the devs consider bare minimum to clear, then be my guest (seriously though, don't be that guy). The fact that you are fighting against healer DPS just shows me that you don't know how to play healer at this point, and want the game to change for your needs, rather than you learning how all of your skills work, and how to excel at healing.

Pressing 5 buttons throughout a dungeon, when you can play the class fully well = Lazy and selfish

Glad that's one less poor healer I'll never have to play with. Utter laziness.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

4. And there can be something, something more interesting. It's not hard to design something superior to our current DPS/heal stance dance.

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I don't want to stay off topic too long. So I'll just reply to this point. :P We have different ideas opinions on certain things. Like... RNG (cards) is not interesting to me and is one of the reasons I refuse to play AST.

4. Do you have any ideas on what they could add? I actually can't think of anything myself, but I'm open to different ideas on how to make the game more engaging.

It could be job specific stuff. For example, Astrologian can have "Draw stances", where we use either the current buff cards or shift to a collection of debuffs and/or offensive oGCDs. It'd certainly raise the skill ceiling much more than Cleric currently does.

Scholar could shift between Tactic stances for their fairies, so instead of just having a "Healing" and "Support" focused fairies, we could get "Magic Amplifying" (defensive, offensive, maybe both) for Eos and "Crowd Control" (unable to be resisted by bosses, though giving reduced effects to maintain balance) for Selene.

White Mage could have a stance that trades damage and gives their elemental spells massive utility like a 15% slow (unable to be resisted by bosses) for having all 3 Aeros on a boss, though it can't be done again until after the first dots would fall off (meaning refreshing it wouldn't make it a permaslow).

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Originally Posted by Rennies

4. And there can be something, something more interesting. It's not hard to design something superior to our current DPS/heal stance dance.

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It is hard to design, cause the stance dance for tanks and healers alike, is what makes their jobs so interesting.... You want to push dps, then do so, but be aware that this comes at a price - you can't take as much dmg as tanks or for healers, you can't heal in dmg stance - therefore you need to judge when you can go into dps stance. This makes for me the healer job so exciting, because you need to plan - at least in savage - and think about when to take the risk and when not to. There is also the element of you or others screwing up an mechanic.

I love the risk and without the dancing we just would put up the dots and then do stone 3, which would be the same as doing a few skills in an dd rotation without the talents and so on. Very boring. I believe even more people would want healers to dps, if there wasn't an certain risk involved.

The way i always seen it if ANY job in the game is not using 90-100% of it's abilities throughout the fight they are just a lazy/bad player, and they should feel bad.

Healer dps is not taken into consideration for 2 reasons:

1. Healer dps helps separate good parties from excellent parties, they want players to have a way to propel themselves to even greeter heights and have a meta for good healers.

2.During bleeding edge progression, or any progression where healers are a minimum or lower item level, its usually better to hold off on dps for the most part until you learn the fights, it would make the fights near impossible if they had to heal AND dps when doing savage at min. item level. It's really the only time healers have a good reason to refrain from dpsing.

Healer is the only job you can get away with being lazy with for most of the game, that's why you see so many entitled people in this thread to just simply be bad players. The problem isn't JUST with them, its with SE shitty design where they baby everyone until level 60 and make it way to easy to slide on by and never motivate players to better themselves and not just stand around cause they don't NEED to do anything but heal to clear most content.

I have always been motivated to dps on healer, after all why run dungeons longer than you have to when doing the daily roulette grind? Why not get to end game faster when leveling up for the first time?(It already takes a while, why waste more minutes of your life you will never get back?) Why not use those tools SE has given to me to use?

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Healer is the only job you can get away with being lazy with for most of the game, that's why you see so many entitled people in this thread to just simply be bad players. The problem isn't JUST with them, its with SE shitty design where they baby everyone until level 60 and make it way to easy to slide on by and never motivate players to better themselves and not just stand around cause they don't NEED to do anything but heal to clear most content.

I have always been motivated to dps on healer, after all why run dungeons longer than you have to when doing the daily roulette grind? Why not get to end game faster when leveling up for the first time?(It already takes a while, why waste more minutes of your life you will never get back?) Why not use those tools SE has given to me to use?

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marry me, plis

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

The way i always seen it if ANY job in the game is not using 90-100% of it's abilities throughout the fight they are just a lazy/bad player, and they should feel bad.

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To be fair, that's the direction and Aurum Vale and The Vault were headed in. Before the latter was nerfed because the 100% healers couldn't handle the HPS (ironically).
And yes I agree, Healer is the only class you can get away with being crap and lazy yet still able to somewhat progress.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

To be fair, that's the direction and Aurum Vale and The Vault were headed in. Before the latter was nerfed because the 100% healers couldn't handle the HPS (ironically).

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It is ironic but it isn't a shock really. Since the healers who only heal 100% of the time end up overhealing and get comfortable not having to do anything other than spam their basic heal, so once things get a bit tough they whine because they run low on MP(spamming those stronger heals because everyone's always gotta be at 100% HP) and don't know how to handle bosses that hit hard and last a while.

I mean, its only been heal-only healers who have:

1. Told me they don't set Swiftcast because they don't usually "need it" (umm idk what they would set otherwise but ok)

2. Spammed HoTs all day + toping off with strong heals then complaining they are running low on MP so everyone needs to stop taking so much damage.

3. Never used Virus/Disable because they never target the enemy.

The first time I ran Aurum Vale I hated it, but now I love it as a healer. Because I can do damage and heal and it really tests your post 50/60 skills.

I believe everyone should do the best they can to be an asset to their team. Imo a healer's main priority is obviously to keep anyone from dying. But once it's clear enough to you that it's not happening I don't see a reason why you wouldn't want to help your team a bit more. Ofc if you're not sure in your skills and are still too scared someone's gonna die cause you don't know the dungeon/raid/job well enough I don't think anyone's really going to blame you if you want to play it safe till you get used to it some more. But I think everyone should at least try to practise and contribute to the best of their abilities and experience. There are other people in your team when you're in a party. Be considerate. I understand if people just wanna play the way they want to but if there's others in your group trying their best to make it a better run for you as well, it would be nice if you found a compromise and tried your best to make it a better run for them as well. Give and take etc.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

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This. You get a cookie.

When I started healing, I wanted be great. I tried all I could to better myself, which included dpsing and healing. It took me a little bit to get the hang of it, but I practiced A LOT. Now I get many compliments on my ability as a healer. It's unbelievably satisfying, and I don't understand why others don't strive for this? Even leveling I never understood the hate for AV and the vault. They've always been my favorites and have never been hard for me. If you grasp what your skills do, and if you use them appropriately, you shouldn't have a problem. Healing is so much more than spamming cure/cure II

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

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People typically have an aversion to anything outside their preferred comfort level or that radically deviations from what they're accustom to. I find many healers who cling to the belief they should only heal come from WoW or even single player games where you have a specific role to fill and do little else. Honestly, healers are more like a support role in FFXIV, especially with the addition of Astro.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

People typically have an aversion to anything outside their preferred comfort level or that radically deviations from what they're accustom to. I find many healers who cling to the belief they should only heal come from WoW or even single player games where you have a specific role to fill and do little else. Honestly, healers are more like a support role in FFXIV, especially with the addition of Astro.

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Just curious do you play healer in Alexander savage? Because you sound like you know alot about what a healer can do and even how they think apprently

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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But I was one of those healers who came from wow. I was one of those wow healers whom did nothing but heal. I kept an open mind coming to this game, not expecting it to be like wow. I had a goal to be the best I could, since I stayed in my "comfort bubble" on wow. Every single day I see sooooooo many healers with so much potential, but can not blossom because they refuse to come out of their own bubbles. Wow healing and XIV healing is different. Coming from WoW is not a good excuse, because I was there. It's not impossible, you just have to try. Practice makes perfect, as they say.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

People typically have an aversion to anything outside their preferred comfort level or that radically deviations from what they're accustom to. I find many healers who cling to the belief they should only heal come from WoW or even single player games where you have a specific role to fill and do little else. Honestly, healers are more like a support role in FFXIV, especially with the addition of Astro.

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This is pretty patently false. FFXIV was my first MMO, and I think that for the most part, healing should be the primary aspect of the healer role. I don't deliberately do poorly in content because of that belief, but I also haven't played since 3.3 largely because of that. (Dropping my raid team had a bit to do with it too, because for the most part the non-raid content here bores me - but why did non-raid content bore me? Because I wasn't enjoying healing it.)

As I once said on Reddit re: XIV's healer DPS - in the end, they're ALL just buttons we push, but what those buttons DO actually plays a lot into a person's personal satisfaction with the role and the sort of archetype they like to play. I hate when people assume things about healers that only want to heal, like they want to be lazy or whatever. I don't want to be lazy, I just get way more satisfaction out of pushing those health bars up than I do smashing those mob health bars down. I like green numbers instead of white numbers, and that's not a crime, ffs. Do I support people intentionally balking against the game's design when they're perfectly capable of adapting to the "rules" the XIV community has laid out? Of course not, but when someone says "I just want to heal, not DPS" I can totally empathize with that. We're (supposedly) playing a role-playing game, after all. Being able to identify with the character role that you've chosen is a pretty crucial aspect of staying invested in an MMORPG, IMO, and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by saying, "but DPSing IS supporting your group, honest!" is really trying to handwave away thoughtful, if not purely objective, criticism over it.

That said, if the devs stick with their current intended design, then there's nothing wrong with that, either. I can acknowledge that there are a decent amount of people (at least on the healer subforum) that like this style of play, and far be it from me to remove it from them. Only SE probably really has any sort of empirical evidence on this (who knows), and I generally assume that they make their design decisions with all the feedback, tools, and knowledge that they possibly can. I won't play this game anymore if Stormblood doesn't at least ATTEMPT to make encounters more healing-focused, but it's not like I expect them to do so simply because I feel so strongly about it.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Do I support people intentionally balking against the game's design when they're perfectly capable of adapting to the "rules" the XIV community has laid out? Of course not, but when someone says "I just want to heal, not DPS" I can totally empathize with that.

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I wouldn't. I've seen bards who refused to play Peon and Mana songs in the name of keeping their DPS top. I wouldn't see any healer tolerating this when they get low from healing so much.


How about we switch it up a bit? What if said healer was a SCH and he said the same thing, but you see his fairy is doing all the work while he is just walking. Would you still emphasize to this "Role playing behavior"?

Ive heard rumours about a red mage coming is this an actual dps healer? Do hope so. Scholar ast and wmg healer classes, red mage support. Will suit many people that like to dps heal. No role confusion. Healers may be allowed to heal again, hopefully as id rather play an actual, dps/healer or a healer. Healers playing with stances feels awkward to me. There is no flow to it. As sch you have a full dps rotation that you got to cut off abruptly if someone suddenly needs a heal, you cant just heal them u have to come out stance before u heal. I dont think im bad at it but sometimes only just catch the tank before he dies. Its rare anyone dies in dungeons with me tho, unless its their fault. I can do this fine its just not enjoyale to me. Used to love dicipline priest in wow ( support class) dps/heal. No problems, and enjoyable flowing playstyle. I just hate cleric it makes dps healig more difficult than is necessary. Please no unproductive comments that im lazy or want an esay life etc.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

I wouldn't. I've seen bards who refused to play Peon and Mana songs in the name of keeping their DPS top. I wouldn't see any healer tolerating this when they get low from healing so much.


How about we switch it up a bit? What if said healer was a SCH and he said the same thing, but you see his fairy is doing all the work while he is just walking. Would you still emphasize to this "Role playing behavior"?

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See, this is my main issue with comments such as this. Lorelei is attempting to take a view that accepts both viewpoints, by commenting that they wish to be invested more in the 'healer' role rather than the 'dps' role, but acknowledging that a DPSing healer is optimal in the current meta of the game. You change it to alike their post as advocating for lazy playstyle by comparing it to a lazy SCH by just focusing on a couple sentences. What? How does one wishing for the game to have a more healing-centric gameplay meta for healers the same as wishing for laziness? Like, I'm in total agreement that healers should DPS wherever possible to the best of their ability; heck, I find it invigorating to do so as I enjoy it, but please, please stop trying to bring out the worst possible applications of either side as an attempt to debunk someone else's statements.

I also love more healing intensive fights. The ones where the tank pulls several packs or the boss hits really hard or there's tons of heavy aoe dmg and all you can think about is "PLSDONTDIE, PLSDONTDIE, PLSDONTDIE" or "Omg I wont make it, need another cd, omg all of them are still on cd!!! FFFF". I LOVE those kind of fights! I haven't seen any endgame yet (started about 2 weeks ago and just hit lvl 50 on my main 2 days ago yay lol) but coming from games where healers couldn't do any useful dps even if their life depended on it I'm actually enjoying the option to be able to dish out decent dps as a healer too. I'm still far from good at this "stance dance" thing and either let the tank die cause I try dpsing too much in the wrong situation or waste good opportunities for dpsing cause I'm too scared to let the tank die (both happening more often than I'd like to lol) But I know I'm gonna enjoy it in the long run.

As already mentioned though, the problem with healing intensive fights is that they cease to be that healing intensive once you get better gear. Progression healing is probably the most fun but then you get more experience/better gear making it easier and leaving you more time to dps. You can't really keep it healing intensive unless you sync ilvl so low that it's gonna feel like progression healing (minus the lack of experience) which is probably less fun or feels less rewarding for some while it's still mad fun for others. You will never be able to please everyone when balancing fights.

And this "hey there's not much dmg going on and/or we overgear the content so much I might as well throw in some dps" happens in every game at some point. Probably more/faster in this one but it happens everywhere at some point. Here they at least gave healers a good toolset for dealing decent dps while in other games some healers may be bored to death.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

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Yoshi P has already stated that RDM will be a pure DPS. It may have some buffs/debuffs, but I can garuntee it will not be anywhere close to a healer.

I keep seeing the word lazy. Why is that even thrown around on a game? Why is it bad to be lazy when playing a game? Do you think people should pay to play a real-life-like-"job", that they have to work hard on? People play to have fun. Thats all that matters to me. I dont care how my healer heals as long as i am not dying while they take a nap.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I keep seeing the word lazy. Why is that even thrown around on a game? Why is it bad to be lazy when playing a game?

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Because certain level of effort is required from each party member for the group to be able to beat the content they're trying to do. If someone in the group is making less effort than others, the others have to carry their weight, and it's not fair. It's being lazy at the expense of others, and that's the issue.

For example, in an expert dungeon run where I was only healing as WHM, I was active 17% of the whole dungeon while the rest of my group members were active 72-77% of the dungeon - while my overheal was still at 35.90%! If everyone else had been contributing at the same level than me as a non-DPSing WHM, we either wouldn't have been able to clear the content or it would have been significantly harder and/or slower.

The issue is that some people are promoting this as a valid play style for haler jobs, while it would not be accepted from anyone else (or how would one look at a tank or a DD who would be only doing something for 17% of a dungeon?).

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I keep seeing the word lazy. Why is that even thrown around on a game? Why is it bad to be lazy when playing a game? Do you think people should pay to play a real-life-like-"job", that they have to work hard on? People play to have fun. Thats all that matters to me. I dont care how my healer heals as long as i am not dying while they take a nap.

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You see the word lazy but you don't read the context of why we are saying it? Interesting. That's like a few other people around here.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

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I agree games should be fun and not become a second job. Some have an easier time learning stuff about their class etc and enjoy that learning/practising part while others may have a hard time and may not want to invest as much time/effort into it due to various reasons.

But the ones that do try hard to get the best out of their characters resulting in runs possibly going faster/smoother for every party member may be a bit upset/frustrated when someone in their team doesnt try as hard as they do for the sake of the group and this may lead to thoughts like "I'm busting my arse off here for the group, why arent they as well?! This isnt fair!"

As Taika mentioned though, it's the same for every other role. A dps that puts in 120% effort/work may be upset seeing another dps putting in 70 or 50%.

In the end and this goes for both sides, nobody can change the way you play the game. Play with like-minded people and have fun.

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Originally Posted by Taika

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I just did a dungeon on AST and I mainly healed. I did dps whenever i could do so comfortably. I could not always dps though. If i felt over-stressed things would go south and so i chose to gimp out on dps until I knew my party was ok. Just healing alone and no dpsing, I know for certain i was active more than 70% of that dungeon. If you include dots and my single target attack spam.. id say i was active more than 95% of time my party was in combat.

"Because certain level of effort is required from each party member for the group to be able to beat the content they're trying to do." That is not always true. If it were, nobody would ever complete duties unless they were preformed. There is room for slack and for good reason. Imagine if every dungeon were as hard as relevant tier raids on release. If the healer isnt causing the group to wipe, you should let them have fun as they want. Most dungeons in this game are so easy it makes me sleepy. If a healer wants to help get it over with fast, yay. If not, well, i dont own them and its not right to make them. If they refuse to do what they need to to beat the content(like heal lol -- ive seen healers OH and never heal forcing a wipe on the whole group), thats different. Kick em.

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Originally Posted by LucyDaernos

A dps that puts in 120% effort/work may be upset seeing another dps putting in 70 or 50%.

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They may get upset but they still have no right to tell others what to do. You cant go to work and tell your co-worker you dont like how slow they are and that they have to work faster. Not unless you provide the paycheck. I get what you are saying but in the end nobody has the right to decide the rights of another. "In the end and this goes for both sides, nobody can change the way you play the game. Play with like-minded people and have fun." So this is something i agree with entirely. If you dont like dutyfinder healers, make a click and stick to it. Arguing and bossing people around over a game seems silly. xD

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

I wouldn't. I've seen bards who refused to play Peon and Mana songs in the name of keeping their DPS top. I wouldn't see any healer tolerating this when they get low from healing so much.


How about we switch it up a bit? What if said healer was a SCH and he said the same thing, but you see his fairy is doing all the work while he is just walking. Would you still emphasize to this "Role playing behavior"?

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You completely and utterly missed the point of my statement to a degree that I am honestly surprised you even read enough of my post to try to formulate a counter-argument. It's like you literally just saw the words "empathize" and "role-play" together and assumed that I was saying it's okay to play an ice-only BLM so long as it's in an RP context, which is not even remotely close to what I was saying at all. Please actually read it, not just skim. I know it's long, but brevity is the dearth of discourse, in my humble opinion.

A better analogy using the same setup you gave would be a BRD wishing for a pure physical ranged DPS class with none of the DPS-lowering support nonsense attached to it. Is there a problem with wanting something like that? Is there a problem with that BRD currently playing their role using their songs correctly, but wishing that they had a DPS option where that wasn't required? That's basically how I feel about healer DPS. I do it, but wish that the developers would start nudging the role more towards what people are traditionally expecting it to be when they sign up to play a healer in an MMORPG.

Now, as I ALSO admitted, the devs don't actually have to change squat. If the devs change BRD to remove their support songs and make them purely DPS-oriented, that might make the BRD in my example happy, but it would make the BRDs who actually enjoy that aspect of the job patently UNHAPPY, and I acknowledge that's the real issue with the devs trying to adjust the meta at this point. I'm just one sub, and I have no way of knowing if there are more of "me" than there are of "you". But I'm trying to debunk the endless mudslinging I see on here (your post being a primary case in point) about healers who want the role to be more traditional, and less DPS-oriented. We're not "lazy". Many of us are currently playing the role optimally in the current design schematic. That doesn't mean we're not allowed to want it to change.

To elaborate further, when I say "change", I don't just mean something as banal as "remove Cleric Stance so that way it's a non-issue!". The way healing is set up in this game, it's DESIGNED to be boring to be friendly to newer players. It's the reason the global is set up the way it is too, with it being super-long at the beginning while people are getting used to playing an MMO, with more stuff added to keep you "busy" as your levels advance. The only problem is, healers have to default to a function that isn't their PRIMARY function in order to keep "busy", because strictly healing at endgame isn't engaging enough to require full throughput from two experienced, global cooldown-efficient healers. So if healing is going to be changed to the point where healers aren't DPSing unless they seriously overgear the content (like how it is in TERA, WoW, SWTOR, Revelation Online, Wildstar, basically any other MMO that has healers at this point except like The Secret World etc.), major design aspects of the game are going to have to change.

It's okay to not want change. It's not okay to make blanket statements about the types of people who might, though. I don't want to twiddle my thumbs in between globals, or casually stroll taking in the scenery while mashing my Embrace macro. I just want my globals to be occupied with using my healing spells, for the most part, not my DPSing ones. (I get that DPSing in content I seriously overgear will always be a thing - it is in those other games I listed, too. But I don't think I've played an MMO yet where you mass pull all the mobs up to a boss in a dungeon with the tank dropping their mitigative stance partway through and the healer primarily DPSing rather than healing...when that content is still relevant.)

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I just did a dungeon on AST and I mainly healed. I did dps whenever i could do so comfortably. I could not always dps though. If i felt over-stressed things would go south and so i chose to gimp out on dps until I knew my party was ok. Just healing alone and no dpsing, I know for certain i was active more than 70% of that dungeon. If you include dots and my single target attack spam.. id say i was active more than 95% of time my party was in combat.

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Sure there may be cases in which the required healing is enough to keep the healer active, and that's of course alright, no one is objecting that. What people are objecting is exactly what I did in that dungeon: I healed enough to keep people alive but was afk for everything else, resulting in 83% of inactivity (was parsed by someone so it's a fact, not my own estimation). It's not ok to afk over 80% of the dungeon, and because of the low healing requirements and major overgearing, that is exactly what a healer will do in many cases if they don't DPS (or do ridiculous overhealing, which doesn't help the group any more).

In short, the argument is: a healer should be as active as their other group members and they should contribute in a meaninful manner. If the healing requirement in a situation isn't enough to keep them active, they should be contributing with DPS.

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Originally Posted by Taika

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I agree with you that being afk in a duty is wrong. I do not believe a healer must dps though. As long as they are trying to keep everyone safe and not watching Netflix I'm happy. If we don't need healing for several GCDs it would not hurt to help dps. I agree it would be good if they did so. I still believe as long as they do not cause failure, they should be left alone. Its not what people want, but thats life. You cant always get what you want. Especially by bossing people you dont even know around and/or passing out insults. Demanding a person to play your way as if you own them and control them is wrong. Nobody here has that right. Unless of course you're paying them or have some sort of contract/agreement.
If there is an OH or a phase that does not require healing at all for a long period of time. Yes i do believe the healer should help. Theres no reason to stand idle for 3 whole minutes watching others play.

Edit: Saw your bold text, I agree with you mostly. Afk is an option for vote kick in game btw. There is no point in debating afk party members. No matter the role, they are all wrong if they are afk and letting others carry them.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I agree with you that being afk in a duty is wrong. I do not believe a healer must dps though. As long as they are trying to keep everyone safe and not watching Netflix I'm happy. If we don't need healing for several GCDs it would not hurt to help dps. I agree it would be good if they did so. I still believe as long as they do not cause failure, they should be left alone.

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So if there's an off tank that doesn't do anything while there aren't any adds up, should they be left alone also as long as they're not causing failure? Or a DD who doesn't do anything for 80% of the time, if they don't directly wipe the party?

I think everyone should be contributing for as much as they can to help the party, and if someone is just leeching the majority of the time, they should be asked to step up and then removed if they refuse to do so. No matter what the role. Being a healer is not an excuse to slack.

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Originally Posted by Taika

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"As long as they are trying"
"If we don't need healing for several GCDs it would not hurt to help" but not required. (Because they are doing something.)
If they are doing nothing... no matter the job/class it is wrong.

If they heal once per minute they should also dps. If they heal actively then thats all they really need to do. (Extra dps is welcome but not required, just like a dragoon pulling world first dps in duty finder dungeons is not required)

Demand people to play a certain way is like demanding them to give you their lunch money. You have no right. If they are at least actively playing and trying to keep people alive, leave em be. That is my stance.

People will continue to have different opinions on how long is "too long" of idling. You mentioned examples of 3mins and 1min, others may feel that 30secs or 3 GCDs may be "too long" already.

I dont think healers that are actively healing damage and dont dps because they cant find time to do so are essentually bad (dont think anyone really intended to say that either though). The next possible step for them would be to look at what they could do to minimize the time they spend healing without letting anyone die. There's a lot someone can look at to possibly free up time for dpsing (better gear, knowledge of the fight/their class, better keybind setup etc).

The thing is, not everyone will WANT to put in the extra effort/work/time. Could argue for another 50+ pages about if someone should or shouldnt be expected to put in that extra effort to work out a way to free up time for dpsing without letting anyone die but not like that's gonna lead to any conclusion. :D

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Snip

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You're offended I get it.

I still won't agree with 100% with what you said. Even if you're using "Empathy" to make a point. All the more reason. So no. I did not miss your point.

Q: As a healer, is it my job to DPS?
A: Whenever possible without endangering the group.

/endthread

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

Yoshi P has already stated that RDM will be a pure DPS. It may have some buffs/debuffs, but I can garuntee it will not be anywhere close to a healer.

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well like I said I only heard rumours but thats disapointing.

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Originally Posted by Sigmar_Heldenhammer

Q: As a healer, is it my job to DPS?
A: Whenever possible without endangering the group.

/endthread

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I agree.Part of the problem is that people believe in things that they had success with, such as healing without dpsing for majority of the game. So there is no real incentive outside harder fights to even do as you said, they rather make fights take longer that they done 100 times before because they either are extremely casual and don't do any hard content or they just like the play-style of healing only but then end up not being as good as other players who take a more proactive role in their parties to end the fights more proficiently.

When your constantly standing around your mind and attention wanders a lot, like others said in this thread when you dps as healer you ussually end determining the best way to maximize dps, which is also learning how to heal better and be more effiecient with your buffs and debuffs as well to give you more time to stay in cleric stance. So on average someone who dpses is also a better healer because they are used to playing their jobs more efficiently and constantly watching their mp bar and and buffs/debuffs etc. Its the attention span and re-activeness of these heal only players that suffer when they stand around too much and therefore they usually are nowhere near as good as players who dps.

However as i stated before, healers can get away with being lazy. They don't NEED to do dps 90% of the time. People simply want them to do it, and that's part of the problem. There is no multiple specs for job, there is only twos way you can really play them. Good or bad.

The reason players get upset when you don't dps is because majority of the content in the game is way to easy and they don't want someone standing around while they doing their daily grinding.

It's the lack of respect for other's people's time is what makes people upset when you don't dps since majority of the content in the game is easy.This is not a single player game.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

well like I said I only heard rumours but thats disapointing.

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It's a relief. A DPS with effective healing would be superfluous. At worst it would be ostracized for being half-assed.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

"Because certain level of effort is required from each party member for the group to be able to beat the content they're trying to do. Imagine if every dungeon were as hard as relevant tier raids on release. If the healer isnt causing the group to wipe, you should let them have fun as they want. Most dungeons in this game are so easy it makes me sleepy. If a healer wants to help get it over with fast, yay. If not, well, i dont own them and its not right to make them. If they refuse to do what they need to to beat the content(like heal lol -- ive seen healers OH and never heal forcing a wipe on the whole group), thats different. Kick em.

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On savage once I was 95% active just healing , not overhealing either. I was told I was a shit player for not dpsing. If you understand what Im saying thats why Im against healers being expected to dps. If they want to its fine, it shouldnt be forced.