Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

The ol broken weapon theory eh?
Wonder what we can run to break a couple weapons. =)

If you dont mind WAR Flash numbers, it would be easy enough to test... once said weapons are broken.

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Originally Posted by Viuiji

For endgame raiding (static is working on A1S atm) is it ok to stay Elezen DW?

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I temporary went Elezen Duskwight for the Int because that's how much A4S is crazy.

Also, I see you guys are working of stat weights o-o once they are concrete, I'll update the main post if that's ok. As far as I am aware, it should be Speed > Crit > Det but who knows.

Solo Queue into T13. Set up a Macro to press "R" at 10s intervals. AFK. Let Bahamut burn you cook your flesh over and over. Gets the job done in 20mins or so :P

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I temporary went Elezen Duskwight for the Int because that's how much A4S is crazy.

Also, I see you guys are working of stat weights o-o once they are concrete, I'll update the main post if that's ok. As far as I am aware, it should be Speed > Crit > Det but who knows.

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Given that the nerf of Det for auto-attacks doesn't affect BLM, I'll be curious to see if Crit>Det for us as well now.

Duskwight master race.

What is the Caster Accuracy cap in A4S? I imagine there's enough people on it now where something small and no real bearing on World First race (imo anyway) like acc caps can be shared now :P

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Originally Posted by Vateri

What is the Caster Accuracy cap in A4S? I imagine there's enough people on it now where something small and no real bearing on World First race (imo anyway) like acc caps can be shared now :P

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540.

10char

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

540.

10char

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Really? Darn I was 5 off (guessed 545). Thank you very much! :)

i just did ravana extreme and parsed 667 with i190 and eso weapon

do you think my dps is good or i still need to improve

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Originally Posted by Sethra

Given that the nerf of Det for auto-attacks doesn't affect BLM, I'll be curious to see if Crit>Det for us as well now.

Duskwight master race.

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To be honest, I don't believe in Crit. I only pick whatever Speed piece meet the accuracy check of A4S which is why I prefer the Eso 210 weapon over the Gordian one.

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Originally Posted by itti18

i just did ravana extreme and parsed 667 with i190 and eso weapon

do you think my dps is good or i still need to improve

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Most BLMs were easily able to pull 1k+ in iLevel 180 with 190 weapon. So you can do better.

Ravana has a phase where he takes increased damage. That's a perfect time to UNLEASH ALL HELL.

Ravana DPS also relies heavily on raid DPS to skip phases.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

The reason expressing potency changes as a % of some previous base would be to provide a common metric between classes.

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Well if their base DPS is lower and Det is only used in first degree polynomials, then the common metric wouldn't be so common. If X det increases your potency coefficient by Y and this holds for all classes, then for two potency coefficients P and Q with P>Q we'd have that an increase of Y/P and Y/Q which wouldn't be equal suggesting that X det on P is less valuable than x det on Q.

Whereas if you just look at what each stat gives you as a product of DPS increase, we remove that problem entirely.

Unless by percentage you're referring to an actual value of 1/100 in the potency coefficient formula. It's weird to refer to it as that, but I guess it wouldn't be incorrect or anything.

Well, Arisue_Neetsha over in JP land has DET scale similarly for all jobs, which to me, makes the most amount of sense. Why would other jobs scale CRT differently, or skillspeed? If DET truly is just a plain old multiplier, then all jobs will scale DET exactly the same.

Any inconsistencies are due to rounding errors, which, I still believe all decimals are truncated to the X decimal place.

I mean Monk, Machinist, Bard and Dragoon all use the same DET coefficient with my tests, so I highly doubt it's different for BLM/SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I mean Monk, Machinist, Bard and Dragoon all use the same DET coefficient with my tests, so I highly doubt it's different for BLM/SMN.

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I don't think it is either- we both have the same numbers either way. I think there'll be some confusion about what the stats actually *do* later down the road though, since we'd have a problem where we would later say Det scales downward the more det you have (which would be untrue) because you need more Det to get 1% higher in DPS. People said the same thing about crit too.

So, its not broken weapon data, but here is some controlled Det change data for War using a high potency Flash.

STR WD Det Hate
710 74 218 3873
710 74 250 3887
710 74 268 3896
710 74 274 3898
710 74 281 3905
710 74 295 3912
710 74 304 3914
710 74 309 3921
710 74 327 3933
710 74 338 3935
710 74 345 3939
710 74 360 3949
710 74 370 3951
710 74 384 3956
710 74 390 3962

Using the 218 Det value of 3873 as a baseline, an extra 1% would be 3911.72, which occurs at 295 Det. 2% would be 3950.46 which is is pretty much 370 Det.
295-218 = 77, 370-295 = 75, okay so some cherry picked values work. The thing is if you start to look at more minor changes, of 20-30 Det rather than 70-80 Det at a time, the numbers are off.
For instance 390 to 360 is 30 Det, 3962/3949 is .3292%, which gives us 30/.3292 = 91.13 Det/%... This is turning into a bit of a headache =P

Most BLM out there need to remember that our abilities are situational. Yes there is an optimal rotation... But that's not the only way we play 100%.

You need to learn how to time certain abilities with different phases erg. Pre planning movement fights and such.

Yes, this means we have to think. Yes it's harder then the 2.x rotation but it separates good from bad.


With that said. Yes I do think there need to be qol changes in the future.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

So, its not broken weapon data, but here is some controlled det change data for War using a high potency Flash.

STR WD Det Hate
710 74 218 3873
710 74 250 3887
710 74 268 3896
710 74 274 3898
710 74 281 3905
710 74 295 3912
710 74 304 3914
710 74 309 3921
710 74 327 3933
710 74 338 3935
710 74 345 3939
710 74 360 3949
710 74 370 3951
710 74 384 3956
710 74 390 3962

Using the 218 Det value of 3873 as a baseline, an extra 1% would be 3911.72, which occurs at 295 Det. 2% would be 3950.46 which is is pretty much 370 Det.

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http://puu.sh/jMeDD/c883e5944e.png

Well, this makes a lot of sense if Hate is supposed to have 0 variation......
/s

This is why I hate this game sometimes, lmao.

Well, Flash has 0 variation, which is why its nice to use for gathering this kind of data, if only on a tank.
Though when you start using smaller Det changes, it moves away from the 75-77 value, as you can see with how jagged the data set is when plotted.

There's also still minor rounding issues. For instance 360 Det produces 3949 hate using Flash... so does 362... So with that in mind one could argue that under the assumption that this is in fact a linear behavior, we should use the min and max values to compute a slope to minimize rounding errors.

So 3962/3873 = 2.298%, 390-218 = 172 Det, so our slope is 74.8477 or about 75 Det/% on WAR.
Now if we go back a few pages to my "nice denominators BLM formula", I had an average projected Det/% of 74.7, which matches rather nicely to the 74.8477 from WAR.

I would like to get more data of this form, or more specifically I will redo this general test with a different weapon to see if the ~75 Det/% value holds across different initial conditions, and for other classes as well.
If this kind of examination continues to produce ~75 for various classes w/ various initial conditions (WD and Main Stat), then we may have "definitively" cracked part of the potency formula.

Healer data would be great as well!

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

To be honest, I don't believe in Crit. I only pick whatever Speed piece meet the accuracy check of A4S which is why I prefer the Eso 210 weapon over the Gordian one.

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What are you going for with BiS? I'm also starting to lean towards more of a SS/Det build... Is the added SS really that worth it in 3.0?

Alright, so when is it OK/Not OK to use the Thundercloud proc? What's the minimum duration of the dot for proc to be a DPS gain against F4? Is it OK to use the proc in UI even though I'll clip the dot big time? Do I use it after F1 refresh only on the fresh enochian timer/ 2nd refresh timer?

I'm seeing a variety of answers when to use/not use the proc. So, really which is it?

Hi everyone! I'm hoping the smarties in this thread can help with an A1S issue. I've been getting kicked from many groups for low dps on Oppressor. Here's what I know:

- My BLM has an eso weapon, body and ring. All other gear is 190.
- I use the rotation from Aikaal's BLM guide, especially for openers. I'm very comfortable with it.
- I use HQ x-int potions on my opener for fire IVx6.
- I currently use flint caviar for food buff.
- On Faust, I can parse 1200+ dps. On the first phase of Oppressor, my parse never reaches above 900. I'm using the exact same opening rotation.
- Most groups ask me to take an add during first phase if there is no SMN in the party.

Despite feeling like I am performing optimal rotations and having prioritized my gear, I'm confused as to why my dps is always so low on Oppressor in the first phase, where I'm the same turret as I am during Faust. (As a side note, I have been in parties where we've gotten Oppressor to 3% before enrage. Take that for what you will.)

Can anyone offer any advice? I feel like I'm out of ideas.

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Originally Posted by Flipside101

Alright, so when is it OK/Not OK to use the Thundercloud proc? What's the minimum duration of the dot for proc to be a DPS gain against F4? Is it OK to use the proc in UI even though I'll clip the dot big time? Do I use it after F1 refresh only on the fresh enochian timer/ 2nd refresh timer?

I'm seeing a variety of answers when to use/not use the proc. So, really which is it?

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To quote myself:

"Rules of thumb for TC priority and use: Mobility > multi-DoT > in UI phase as supreme filler > as late as possible in AF phase, after F1 almost always > skip it or delay it if you can't meet any of those conditions."

It's not much more complicated than that, barring very situational circumstances.

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Originally Posted by 7hurricane

Hi everyone! I'm hoping the smarties in this thread can help with an A1S issue. I've been getting kicked from many groups for low dps on Oppressor. Here's what I know:

- My BLM has an eso weapon, body and ring. All other gear is 190.
- I use the rotation from Aikaal's BLM guide, especially for openers. I'm very comfortable with it.
- I use HQ x-int potions on my opener for fire IVx6.
- I currently use flint caviar for food buff.
- On Faust, I can parse 1200+ dps. On the first phase of Oppressor, my parse never reaches above 900. I'm using the exact same opening rotation.
- Most groups ask me to take an add during first phase if there is no SMN in the party.

Despite feeling like I am performing optimal rotations and having prioritized my gear, I'm confused as to why my dps is always so low on Oppressor in the first phase, where I'm the same turret as I am during Faust. (As a side note, I have been in parties where we've gotten Oppressor to 3% before enrage. Take that for what you will.)

Can anyone offer any advice? I feel like I'm out of ideas.

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Don't take an add in first phase (I assume you mean the first two adds who can die wherever, whenever). If you do, just Flare all 3 and wash your hands of it. Soloing an add in the first set is dumb, so many group AoE options, and their HP is low enough you can milk them with SCH Bane or Elixer Field or whatever you want really.

900 is very low for first phase, no matter your gear/comp. Are you losing hard casts during your dodges?

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Originally Posted by Flipside101

Alright, so when is it OK/Not OK to use the Thundercloud proc? What's the minimum duration of the dot for proc to be a DPS gain against F4? Is it OK to use the proc in UI even though I'll clip the dot big time? Do I use it after F1 refresh only on the fresh enochian timer/ 2nd refresh timer?

I'm seeing a variety of answers when to use/not use the proc. So, really which is it?

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These are really good questions.

First thing you need to know is when you are *able* to fit a proc in. I used to go 4/1/4/4/4 to give my rotation a bit more flexibility than 4/4/1/4/4 (I can explain why, but it doesn't matter since it's no longer the right rotation in my opinion). I go 4/4/1/4/4 now because it gives you a few more opportunities to fit thundercloud in.

You can go 4/T/1/4/4/4, or 4/4/1 and then Thunder in any of the three other slots. You can also fit a thundercloud in at any point in umbral ice.

So to answer your other questions:
The maximum duration of the DoT currently on the target for Thundercloud to be a DPS increase is (drumroll please) 21 seconds. Yup.

Fire IV's potency from a spell speed neutral vantage point is 1.8*280/3 = 168
Thundercloud's potency all up front is 390/2.5 = 156.

But if we add just one tick of thunder to thundercloud-

390+40 guaranteed, with a 10% chance of another 390 (ignoring subsequent damage from a DoT refresh)

So a 90% chance of 430 potency over a GCD and a 10% chance of 820 over 2 GCDs = an expected potency per second of 171.2 which is higher than Fire IV. Thunder cloud is very good.

In fact, the fact that thundercloud is demonstrably this good is a pretty solid answer for your other questions.

Thunder and all subsequent procs (calculated the same way as thundercloud was earlier) is 120 potency per second. If you clip the dot from 15-18 seconds remaining with a thunder cloud you're expecting a 184 potency per second return. That's 64 potency per second more. To reach that much of an increase over Fire IV spam, you need to be at about 3 seconds remaining on Fire IV. It's safe to say that, because your other options in umbral Ice are so low, it's reasonable to always dump thundercloud procs during umbral ice if possible.

One other thing to note- at my current spell speed (761) and under leyline with ACT I can fit in Fire IV/Fire IV/Thundercloud/Fire and not lose stacks.

Black Mage DPS is more about having a toolbox for situations involving procs/mechanics. This is just another tool available in certain situations.

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Originally Posted by Xenitan

Fire IV's potency from a spell speed neutral vantage point is 1.8*280/3 = 168

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Doesn't astral fire 3 give fire spells a 87.5% increase?

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Originally Posted by Neophyter

Doesn't astral fire 3 give fire spells a 87.5% increase?

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Does it? I've only ever seen an 80% increase cited.

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Originally Posted by Xenitan

Does it? I've only ever seen an 80% increase cited.

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This site is where I got my info from. This one makes the most sense to me due to the increasing diminishing returns, but I never really tested this myself.

It's 80%, just tested it to make sure nothing changed

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Originally Posted by itti18

i just did ravana extreme and parsed 667 with i190 and eso weapon

do you think my dps is good or i still need to improve

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I know someone else already replied and while this was BismarkEx and not Ravana, i parsed over 700 with an i180 weapon at the time, never really checked now that i have an eso weapon. Really do look at Aikal's guide if you have not, some good info there. Granted my openers are slightly different at times. Keep at it you will get better :)

What eso pieces are everyone getting this week/next?

I think i will be getting eso chest this week and then i guess accesories

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It's 80%, just tested it to make sure nothing changed

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Thank god. Almost gave me a heart attack.

I'm still torn about the next choice. I'm currently in A3S Phase 2 and got Weapon+Chest+Ring(upgraded) so far and the Gordian bracelet from A1S which I can't use at the moment cause I fall below 500 accuracy.
My next raid will be unfortunately not until next Monday and on Wednesday then again. That means I will have 5 Pages from A1, 4 Pages from A2 and 960 esotherics till our next serious A3S attempt. I tend to not buying anything until we cleared both IDs for A1+A2 and then decide where to put my pages and esos in but Gordian ring and eso boots would be a good choice by now (and bring me to exactly 539 accuracy)

Or should I go for main stat first for A3S and take the pants and later the head? I don't like their stats tbh ...

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Originally Posted by iro43

What eso pieces are everyone getting this week/next?

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I got staff/ring/body so far, gonna do belt next because it's a boost to HP and spell speed, at the cost of an accessory.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I got staff/ring/body so far, gonna do belt next because it's a boost to HP and spell speed, at the cost of an accessory.

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Currently I have eso weapon, chest, and bought the belt this week. Have Gordian braclet, and will get Gordian ring tomorrow. Most likely buying eso boots this week depending on drops

Isn't A2 belt BiS? Why is everyone buying Eso belts?

this week from an endgame perspective is problematic and heres why - If you are very fortunate (as I am) then you have drops. I will be getting boots from pages this week out of turn 2, this will complete my loot from turn 2. So boots from eso, while bis imo, arent really efficient for clearing As4, I'll be getting the gobtwine this week for my body. I have the gordian bracelet, which kills the bracelet option (and a great one it is.) I cannot get pants til next week - and even then I"m unsure if I want them. I already have eso body, weapon and ring. The necklace will inflate my accuracy considering I'm picking up boots from a2s this week. The hat will also inflate my accuracy and I'm just gonna wait to clear a3 again before I make that decision.

This is imo the best choices however-

boots, bracelet... and uh, well everything else is accuracy bloat. I do not know what I'll be getting.

I'd use this week as filler purchase if you are lacking anything super important like accuracy. I really don't think the hat from eso is worth it un upgraded from prototype gordian, unless you need the hp. and well screw the legs.

so lets looks.

weapon - acquired
hat - accuracy bloat
body - acquired
belt - Gordian is better and I have gordian
legs - accuracy bloat
boots - good choice but I'm getting a2 s boots and this solves my accuracy problems this week + is worth considering I cannot upgrade eso boots just yet
neck - meh If i needed the accuracy... i guess, this is the only gordian jewelry I don't have and is a piece I'd rather get from drops. We'll see.
Bracelet - good choice here, but I have the 210 piece, this would be a downgrade this week, upgrade in the long run
ear - I already have gordian and I like it better than eso
ring - I have it

So ya boots, bracelet, necklace seems to be the best choices.

Any advice on what my next 2 Eso pieces should be?

I am working on A1S atm, and am a little behind in the Eso department (sitting at 236 right now, which will be 686 once I cap again after reset).

I currently have the Eso weapon & chest with almost everything else i190. One ring is i180 which makes me think the Eso ring it is the better option for now. That would leave me with 761 Eso after the next reset when I cap if I get the ring this week.

I am thinking this week ring, next week boots (depending on my savage progress of course)?

@Viuiji: I would do it exactly as you suggested. Ring (obvious choice, even if you get the A1S ring) -> Boots (BiS, A2S boots are still far from you)

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Originally Posted by Primm

@Viuiji: I would do it exactly as you suggested. Ring (obvious choice, even if you get the A1S ring) -> Boots (BiS, A2S boots are still far from you)

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Thanks! :)

I have a thought, wouldn't fire IV under leylines be stronger than Thundercloud proc under leylines? So that means while leylines are up, would thunderproc be a dps lost?