Yoshida gives update on the benchmark/character creator

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Originally Posted by Loggos

I would love to see those too if it's not too much trouble. It would be really helpful!

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So, as much as I would like to, I did some googling about TOS before doing so and I'm afraid of getting my friend (and possibly myself) in trouble for 'disseminating datamined content'. So as much as I'd really like to, because it's a lot easier to tell when you separate the textures from the model, I can't. :( Since I can't find a definitive yes or no on whether doing that would get me banned or not and I'm not willing to risk my had-since-ARR account for it. I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by Fuyume

So, as much as I would like to, I did some googling about TOS before doing so and I'm afraid of getting my friend (and possibly myself) in trouble for 'disseminating datamined content'. So as much as I'd really like to, because it's a lot easier to tell when you separate the textures from the model, I can't. :( Since I can't find a definitive yes or no on whether doing that would get me banned or not and I'm not willing to risk my had-since-ARR account for it. I'm sorry.

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I completely understand that! You should not endanger your account. I'm just glad to hear you could make that comparison to begin with. Since we'll get the new benchmark soon any feedback discussions will shift to the new models anyway.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

I completely understand that! You should not endanger your account. I'm just glad to hear you could make that comparison to begin with. Since we'll get the new benchmark soon any feedback discussions will shift to the new models anyway.

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Yes! I'm hoping it will become a non issue with the updates. From my minimal 3D modeling knowledge though I could see how this could happen in an early smoothing of the face before making more specific adjustments, so fingers crossed!

There's some more nebulous statements about scaling and models and textures which could mean anything from fixing 1% to 100% of the non-lighting problems. Who knows and there's zero point in speculating until the new BM comes out, though my no-evidence-gut-feel is this will solve a big chunk but not all grievances.

I also suspect they'll have a team member tasked with welding his ass to a chair reading every post from now until Dawntrail to make sure they get all the feedback. That might mean they are tweaking small items all the way to release so perhaps we won't be 100% sure until we see our characters loading up DT on live. Not much we can do if that is the case but they are clearly listening and trying.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Full disclosure I did not ask for vacations but know some who did. I see the point in focusing on quality, that in and of itself is not bad and I can sort of agree when the "Quality" in question is not subjective. But I would say that everything matters and people should be considerate of others. We all knew how Yoshida took the last delay really hard and was extremely hesitant to give a date due to not being 100% sure. They take their announced release dates extremely seriously. Seeing the benchmark, I don't see anything that is so scuffed a multimillion dollar launch needs to get delayed. Perhaps some of it can be ongoing work if needed.

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I'm sure your friend will survive.

At the very least take it as a lesson learned to not dump vacation time for video game launches. Use it for...idk...an actual vacation or actual time off to rest from work? (Which is the point of vacation time ultimately).

Personally I'd rather them delay DT to correct issues and attempt to make the majority happy if they need to.

Lighting changes are great, but as long as the major, actual technical issues are fixed I'm happy (as in texture seams with bald haircuts, bald heads still being low-poly, hairstyles and tattoos clipping into the head, texture artifacting, etc)

I wouldn't expect most of the complaints about subjective or very mild changes like the contours of a specific set of lips being slightly tweaked to be addressed, and I would prefer that they focus their efforts on more pressing matters anyways.

Change will naturally not sit well with every person, but hopefully the lighting improvements and fixes will make some of the disappointed folks happier with their characters.

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

I also suspect they'll have a team member tasked with welding his ass to a chair reading every post from now until Dawntrail to make sure they get all the feedback.

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Honestly, this alone would make me have so much respect for them (and I want to emphasise I do think very highly of this dev team, the benchmark hasn't changed this; I can dislike the results and still see how hard they work).
No developer is perfect and I know there are many aspects where people don't feel heard such as class design, content drought, homogenisation etc. (and I think their concerns are valid).
But I do think that Yoshi and his team genuinely care about the player base and communicate with them more frequently and much more respectfully than I have seen it from other game devs.
That I will always appreciate about them.

People who want others to open their eyes and realise how everything is obviously minor and so on and on - why do you care? Like, honestly, what does it have to do with you? I know there were lots of purely bait-like, aggressive, provocative messages all around. They are not sophisticated in their nature. But some seem really invested in changing someone else’s mind to the point of going to the threads with feedback they apparently don’t care about and continuously argue other people opinions as if their life depends on it. Is it your life calling or something?
It looks pretty exhausting.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

2. "I think your character looks nice" is also quite dismissive because it doesn't help anybody if someone else thinks a character looks nice. The player in question has to think their character looks nice. I also personally think a few benchmark characters look nicer according to my taste.
However telling them will most certainly not make them feel better. It might come across as pretty patronising if someone explains in detail why they are dissatisfied and what changes they have observed only to be hit with "Why do you complain, I think this is nice." when the broader context of the discussion is "It's not that bad/It's not there. You are exaggerating/you have rose-tinted glasses on". That is just another brand of "you are being irrational".
It can also come across like "Now your character looks better. If you like your old one then you have bad taste bc the old one is objectively worse."

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Another way to word this sentiment is: "I had to lose a face I loved, so that you could gain a face you liked." Bonus points if the person saying the face looks better has a profile of a completely different face, nevermind race or gender.

I then have to look at it this way. For instance, I like the new Roegadyn faces. I didn't like them before enough to really consider rolling one. Someone probably liked the faces before, did they lose a face they loved so I could look at a face and consider it nice enough to choose? Like, I'm happy to have more options myself, but it's not like there were many faces no one really used. Standouts I can think of would be things like face 3 femra, and yet I've seen people post their face 3 femras and they made gorgeous, personalized characters I'd never personally make. Would the game be better if face 3 femras had the more angular, aggressive, hawkish look of face 4 that I absolutely adored? Yes, for me, but no, for many others. And I already had the face I want, I don't care for face 3's horns, so it's not like I'll convert either, meaning they would lose what they love, I gain nothing of intrinsic value, and the game is worse off all for the sake of me gaining an option I didn't even really want anyways.

There's also another counterpoint to the argument of it looking better in this newer, cuter rendition: Where else would I go for this general look? Even if I were willing to sacrifice the fact that au ra have horns, scales, and a scaly tail instead of our furry feline friends, who else has this hawkish, aggressive look? We'd need to start looking at the likes of Hrothgals and Roegals to even find anything close to this aggressive face. Which also is, on average, a 1 foot jump in height on completely different, much bigger bodies.

It's at this point that "I think it looks better!" just dies. Variety is being removed from the game and nothing is actually being gained. This argument can be applied to every single argument. Lips changed? The new ones are flat, ugly, lacking the same definition. Nose bridge is too small, it's homogenized with humes/viera/whatever. The cheeks are puffier, I liked my character looking more gaunt!

Those are made up examples, but the point still stands. I don't care if you love how my character looks. I want you to like it, sure, but I have to love my character, and your love of my character has nothing to do with my love of my character.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

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Yeah this is basically it. Even if it's meant as reassurance, it doesn't read that way to the impacted players and especially not if the changes were to a face or feature that was chosen precisely because it was less typical (iirc the unique eye structure on one male viera face was functionally erased, which is awful for anyone who picked that face precisely because it had that feature!) and thus more likely to be seen as "ugly" by other people. Not to mention that the actual shape of the lip textures on several faces were nerfed into homogeneity.

I'm hoping the updates fix this, but it's not something I'm holding my breath about for anything not explicitly addressed.