Evidence that Macros Do NOT Cause GCD Delay or Lost Casts

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Macros have a different type of queue.

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I would hazard that you're probably talking about the fact that macro queues are shorter, or perhaps the fact that only a single macro can run at once. But to truly know, I'll need more information. Can you describe these situations in more detail? I want to make sure I'm understanding the exact situations you're talking about, because I think you're misunderstanding some aspect of what's happening...but I can't be sure if I don't have more information about the situations you're trying to describe so that I know we're on the same page.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

When you use abilities you can use an ability and then there is a period where the input for the 2nd ability will queue and trigger when possible. With macros this is not the case. If you put the same abilities in two macros, when you use one ability, you have to spam the button for the other until it triggers.

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The way you describe this situation is throwing up red flags, because there's no situation where a well-written macro benefits from being spammed. That suggests to me that something else is going on.

From just what you've written here, my guess is that the timing of your second macro press is too early; remember, macros have shorter queues than normal actions. So if you wanted to use a macro in this situation, you'd just have to adjust your timing; then you could still get the benefit of a queue while also benefiting from whatever functionality the macro is giving you.

It's up to every individual player to decide whether that's "worth it" to them. For me, it most definitely is. I've got years of playing twitch games under my belt so consistently hitting a button in a 10-frame window isn't an issue for me. But for others it might be, and that's valid.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which means a far, far larger group will see a net loss than a net gain

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Setting aside the fact that this statement is conjecture, this doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about. If I said something like "everyone should use macros, they'll improve your play" then you might have a good point here. But I have said nothing close to that. I've explained how macros work, I've gone over both the pros and the cons, and I've suggested that each individual player decide for themselves whether macros will make their situation better or worse. If only a small handful of players find that macros are the better option in some cases for them, then this thread will have served its purpose.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

this doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about.

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It was not a reply made to you. Else it would have quoted you, not the poster it replied to. Any use of the third person in my reply to that poster who was in turn replying to someone else will then be about the person they replied to, not an unrelated person -- be they the original poster or otherwise.

My point, to the person I quoted and thought I had there y made clear I was replying to, was that hitting consistently hitting each GCD skill with frame-perfect precision is not only still allows for slight GCD loss (i.e., within that frame's time) but is also far harder for the typical player. It is not an insignificant, let alone nonexistent, cost.

A single "But *I* do frame-perfect speed runs!" anecdote is not a decent refutation of statistically sensible advice.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It was not a reply made to you. Else it would have quoted you, not the poster it replied to.

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With respect, you seem to be misunderstanding the conversation. I wrote something, the Alt attempted to counter it, and then Venks countered their counter. We're all talking about an idea that I initially presented.

Hopefully that clears that up and we can just talk about the topic amicably.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My point was that hitting consistently hitting each GCD skill with frame-perfect precision is not only still allows for slight GCD loss (i.e., within that frame's time)

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From everything I've seen, both a queued GCD and a queued macro of that same GCD will trigger on the frame after the GCD becomes available. Is there any evidence showing that there is a difference on when these occur within the frame?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My point was that hitting consistently hitting each GCD skill with frame-perfect precision is also far harder for the typical player. It is not an insignificant, let alone nonexistent, cost.

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I'll agree that it's harder to press a button within a 10-frame window than it is to press a button within a 30-frame window; that is indeed a cost, one that I've been transparent about.

As for it being "far harder for the typical player", have you genuinely done any research into this? How many frames does the typical player need to reliably press a button, and can you provide a source that data?

Regardless, I'll follow-up by explaining why whether it is or isn't meaningfully difficult for the typical player is unimportant in the context of this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A single "But *I* do frame-perfect speed runs!" anecdote is not a decent refutation of statistically sensible advice.

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Venks isn't refuting "statistically sensible advice"; Venks is countering the argument that it's inevitable that someone will miss a key press. And they're right.

That said, if you want to talk about "statistically sensible advice", let's do that.

If you want to provide "statistically sensible advice", you can, but it has a glaring flaw: it makes the mistake of assuming that the person the advice is being directed towards is among the people who would benefit from the advice; which means that for some people, "statistically sensible advice" is bad advice.

I would rather not give bad advice to anyone. I would rather not misinform anyone. So I'll give everyone all the information, and then treat them with respect by allowing them to make the decision of which path to take.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which means a far, far larger group will see a net loss than a net gain --

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I'm not arguing everyone should use macros. The comment I was replying to asked the OP not to spread misinformation, while spreading misinformation.

It is a literal verifiable fact that it is possible to use macros without a DPS loss. But yes it is also likely for many players, they'll have an easier time just mashing their next GCD.

I have nothing against people not prefering macros and finding them too hard to use. That's fine. Just don't lie about their functionality. That was my problem with the post I was replying to.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I would hazard that you're probably talking about the fact that macro queues are shorter, or perhaps the fact that only a single macro can run at once. But to truly know, I'll need more information. Can you describe these situations in more detail? I want to make sure I'm understanding the exact situations you're talking about, because I think you're misunderstanding some aspect of what's happening...but I can't be sure if I don't have more information about the situations you're trying to describe so that I know we're on the same page.


The way you describe this situation is throwing up red flags, because there's no situation where a well-written macro benefits from being spammed. That suggests to me that something else is going on.

From just what you've written here, my guess is that the timing of your second macro press is too early; remember, macros have shorter queues than normal actions. So if you wanted to use a macro in this situation, you'd just have to adjust your timing; then you could still get the benefit of a queue while also benefiting from whatever functionality the macro is giving you.

It's up to every individual player to decide whether that's "worth it" to them. For me, it most definitely is. I've got years of playing twitch games under my belt so consistently hitting a button in a 10-frame window isn't an issue for me. But for others it might be, and that's valid.

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No situation well-written macros...

Ma-am, ever played healer on controller? Half their kit will be macroed as
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>

So that they don't get issues having to constantly swap targets to damage an enemy, or heal an ally targeted by an enemy.

And there are plenty other macros that are one action only. And no, macros don't have shorter queue. They have none, the timing would have to be some time after the last ability have completed, unlike with non-macros where the next ability would trigger as the last ability finish.

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Originally Posted by Venks

I've been noticing more Japanese players using macros recently which was super confusing to me given what I've heard from the Balance

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Conversely I'm from JP and I'm confused at the antipathy against macros here. Perhaps it is partially because one of the top players in the JP community preferred healing macros. Unfortunately he retired from the game 6 years ago.
World 1st The Unending Coil of Bahamut(Ultimate) WHM PoV https://youtu.be/qa3iK4Gnxqo

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

What sorts of settings do you save and change when switching jobs via macros?

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I meant that I copy gearsets and settings macros like /mountbgm into the same destination hotbar, and not doing both in one macro, though I should look into that more for Bozja/Eureka gearsets

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I generally try to avoid anything that copies multiple crosshotbars (especially trying to swap 2 crosshotbars!) because of the danger of an interrupted macro resulting in the loss of data.

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Yeah that's why I switched to putting stuff on all 10+cross bars and using hud toggles. A failure is far less painful

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Ma-am, ever played healer on controller?

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Yep, for context I play exclusively on controller, and my WHM was my 2nd job to reach 100. So I'm well aware of the challenges that come with healing on controller. ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Half their kit will be macroed as
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>

So that they don't get issues having to constantly swap targets to damage an enemy, or heal an ally targeted by an enemy.

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For my personal tastes, I like to keep my allies targeted, so I only use this type of macro for abilities like Stone, Aero, etc; I use the up and down D-pad to switch which party member I'm targeting. I've personally found that if I use this kind of macro for healing abilities, it doesn't perform the way I want because I won't heal myself during solo content unless I target myself, which I personally dislike. But on that last matter, to each their own; what matters most is that a macro satisfies the needs of the person using it.

And in the case of this macro, I'm guessing that the reason you feel the need to spam it is because as you wrote it here, this macro can easily be improved. That macro will only try to do a target cast on one single frame, and then it will only try to do a target-of-target cast on one single frame. Because of that, it's not going to be taking advantage of queuing. So I'd recommend instead doing the following:

/macroerror off
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>

This will allow you to get queuing functionality from this macro, where for 12 frames the macro is trying to cast either target or target-of-target on alternating frames. With a macro like this, you're not going to need to spam as long as you press the macro up to 12 frames before your GCD is available. It's way more comfortable and reliable than spamming, so I heartily recommend giving it a try, even though there will likely be a small learning curve as you adjust to the 12-frame timing. Especially if you're already using this type of macro, this will only improve your experience with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

And there are plenty other macros that are one action only. And no, macros don't have shorter queue. They have none, the timing would have to be some time after the last ability have completed, unlike with non-macros where the next ability would trigger as the last ability finish.

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In those cases it's even easier than the above because you don't even have to alternate:

/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>

A macro like this will give you a 12-frame queue window, and it will on average be more responsive than the alternating style because every single frame it's trying to do the same action.

I hope this helps explain how to take advantage of queuing with macros and improves your experience using them! ^^

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Originally Posted by Venks

This was a super fun read and I'm glad I saw this thread. I've been noticing more Japanese players using macros recently which was super confusing to me given what I've heard from the Balance, but I see now that you can actually use macros without clipping. I'm excited to try this out.

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Whoops, I got so caught up in the pushback that it distracted me from your post!

I just want to say that I really appreciate your taking the time to leave positive feedback like this; it fills me with warmth to hear that you were inspired to give these techniques a try, and I hope they work out for you! And if you ever want to talk shop to fine-tune anything or try to solve pain points that arise, I'd be more than happy to!