Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

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Originally Posted by Endariel

But super casuals will complain "ItS tOo HaRd, uNsUb"

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In my experience, the problem with non-linear dungeon design isn't actually the casuals. The problem is the people who want to optimize. (Which, alas, does often include me.)

Think of Toto-Rak in 1.x. How many people actually made a point of opening up all the pathways and trying to fight all three possible diremites? How many people just found the shortest possible path to go get in one diremite kill, and only ever did that? I would bet you the number of people in group 2 was a lot higher than group 1.

In ARR, they seem to have learned from that, because they left in little side-objectives but made mostly one pathway. But how many people have ever bothered to go into the side-rooms (or down the side hallway on the second floor) in Haukke Manor to explore those spots in recent memory? How many people have done all the optional treasure room stuff in the Sunken Temple of Qarn when running it these days?

In contrast, how many people just grab everything they can between point A and point B, and then burn it down as quickly as possible in order to move onwards? (And again, I note I include myself in this group. For good or ill.)

We, as a playerbase, have historically demonstrated that given content with multiple pathways and possible objectives, we will maybe wander it once, and thereafter we will find the shortest possible route through and optimize it to be run as quickly as possible, while ignoring all side content along the way.

I can't really blame the developers for deciding to focus their effort on making dungeons that adhere to that philosophy.

The problem is they should have utilized the entirety of the dungeons rather than just being optional paths.

This way you can force players to plan out strategies and if it requires splitting up to wrap up the objective faster as the reward.

If you ever played Resident Evil Outbreak, it would be something like that.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

The problem is they should have utilized the entirety of the dungeons rather than just being optional paths.

This way you can force players to plan out strategies and if it requires splitting up to wrap up the objective faster as the reward.

If you ever played Resident Evil Outbreak, it would be something like that.

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I mean, demonstrably they're willing to experiment with trying stuff like that again more recently on larger-party content, as we've seen in Bozja.

DR Savage was designed such that people would split into two groups at the beginning, one heading west to deal with slimes and the other east to deal with golems. And in terms of optional stuff, you could send one person off to 1v1 with the Stygimoloch Lord for a massive buff while the rest of the group fought Dahu, plus you could have the entire group fight the Stygimoloch Lord just before the Queen (to weaken her before fighting her), if you opened the secret passageway to access that fight after fighting Avowed.

(Side note: I really, really liked DR Savage. More, please.)

On a smaller scale in Bozja, we've also seen the prisoners/buttons mechanic in CLL, or the splitting up into hallways in the Dalriada with one group remaining in the center room to read the consoles (and have four stand on the floor pad to disable the cross-hallway lasers... not that they ever stay there consistently in my experience). So I do have some hope we'll see more creativity like this in the alliance raids in Endwalker, or at least in some content in the expansion.

But I don't think we're going to see it in Light Party content anytime soon -- and I don't think we're likely to see any Full Party content outside of trials and raids, either -- and I think that's our fault as a playerbase, at least in part, due to the "rush rush rush GOTTA GO FAST speeeeeeeed" mindset a lot of the playerbase approaches content with.

(Again, often including me.)

With the single dungeon playthrough footage that we've got, it seems like we're going to get the same corridor dungeons for the next expansion too. But there is hope: the normal raids look like there's a chance trash will be reintroduced.

Yeah, this is one instance where FFXIV should get inspired by wow, make Heroic dungeons that are much harder and offer better looking items, even dyeable versions of normal ones would be fine. Getting a 4 people team together for that is much easier than 8 people.
I always loved heroic dungeons back in the day.

For dungeons, puzzles please: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...8Suggestion%29

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

Dungeons have become linear corridors where the trash are meaningless and mechanics are regurgitated over and over again. .

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I'd like to see more complicated dungeons, but this is nothing new. Heavensward right out of the gate changed dungeon design to being short & linear because these were the first newly designed dungeons since 1.0. The only reason ARR dungeons are the way they are is because they were reused 1.0 dungeons that had a significantly different goal for the player to achieve. Heck, some of the ARR dungeons have significant portions of their original 1.0 versions just inaccessible as it is now.

I personally would love to see 1.0 style dungeons return but I am absolutely under no illusion that it will ever happen.

It would really be cool if they turned map dungeons into sprawling catacombs with traps and proper dungeon mechanics and leave the story dungeons to be casual content like they are now. In my opinion, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

But I don't think we're going to see it in Light Party content anytime soon -- and I don't think we're likely to see any Full Party content outside of trials and raids, either -- and I think that's our fault as a playerbase, at least in part, due to the "rush rush rush GOTTA GO FAST speeeeeeeed" mindset a lot of the playerbase approaches content with.

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Going fast through a dungeon doesn't prevent complexity. It just makes for a more complex speedrun.

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I'd like to see more complicated dungeons, but this is nothing new. Heavensward right out of the gate changed dungeon design to being short & linear because these were the first newly designed dungeons since 1.0. The only reason ARR dungeons are the way they are is because they were reused 1.0 dungeons that had a significantly different goal for the player to achieve. Heck, some of the ARR dungeons have significant portions of their original 1.0 versions just inaccessible as it is now.

I personally would love to see 1.0 style dungeons return but I am absolutely under no illusion that it will ever happen.

It would really be cool if they turned map dungeons into sprawling catacombs with traps and proper dungeon mechanics and leave the story dungeons to be casual content like they are now. In my opinion, anyway.

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Only 4 dungeons were from 1.0 though. Totorak, cutters cry, dzemael dark hold, and aurum value.

I do fully agree that the dungeons are becoming more and more of a bore, but that is not just the dungeons, its our characters toolset as well.

Unless the healer is seriously under-geared, he will just laugh on wall to wall pulls since his toolkit is just allows him to press 3 buttons and you are topped up. (I main a healer so I know this, I'm literally at times telling people to ignore mechanics just so I have something to even heal, you know, my jobs primary role)

Same with tanks, when I tank LVL 80 dungeons, I have soo many skills for self healing, defense cooldowns etc. that wall to wall pulls are a joke, and I dont even remember if any boss has a serious tank buster that I actually worry about, I mean, you have 30% damage reduction 1 button cooldown, you can get the damage reduction up to 60%-70% and than just pop your self heal.

DPS, unless you boosted and do not understand your basic toolset will melt anything they touch. I mean, my BLM Fire 4 crits for 100k(with DH otherwise just 70k) and I just sit on 520 Gear.

So yeah, the dungeons are a joke after you hit 500ILV+ even more.