Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

Zodiark has no will, Elidibus abandoned the position. Whatever good or bad results after that is not because "it's Evil or it's Good". It has no moral compass to define those values. What it would do after release is anyone's guess.

The people who work toward the destruction of everything that is, in the hope (not guarantee) that everything that was might be restored, lack a firm grasp on reality. The morals of a self-proclaimed godling (the Ancients, not Zodiark) are suspect.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

A potential issue is that most of the questions I've seen going "Is Zodiark good or evil" are actually phrasing the question incorrectly. I assume this is because the posters don't actually realize they're not asking the question they actually intend to ask.

A more proper formulation would be "Is Zodiark evil, or not-evil". "Not-evil" does not necessarily mean "good". "Good" and "evil" require actions and intent, and it would convince me if someone were to argue that Zodiark hasn't had a chance to display either, and thus his morality should be "unknown". In fact, that's my current stance, along with the added opinion that it doesn't actually matter, because we don't have enough information on what Zodiark actually did (we know the basic outline and the consequences, but nothing else).

Because in all the discussions, I've never seen anyone argue that Zodiark is actually unadulterated good. It's always "flawed and used as a tool" at best, rather than "yes, Zodiark did the right thing, and is continuing to do the right thing". So already the question "Is Zodiark good or evil" has dismissed the "good" part. And "it's complicated" avoids the question while also being a more accurate and useful answer, which means the question is incorrect.

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No I framed the question as I intended. My view is that when you say "good" or "evil" you are not dealing in absolutes, it would be pedantic to suggest so as nothing is ever absolute, except maybe feelings, but they are suspetiple to change frequently. Instead that theres a spectrum between the two and the outcome is categorised based on you perception of where on the spectrum Zodiark would sit. I don't think we actually know enough to logically place him either way, I was curious to see where people stood with the arbitary confines of the proposed question. We know 1 example of what Zodiark actually did and that was stop the final days by rewrting the rules that govern the star, beyond that, we know only of plans and or suggestions of an approach without specifics. I.e Zodiark wanted more power. Though even if he did, we do not know if he actually acted on said desire or not.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Zodiark has no will, Elidibus abandoned the position. Whatever good or bad results after that is not because "it's Evil or it's Good". It has no moral compass to define those values. What it would do after release is anyone's guess.

The people who work toward the destruction of everything that is, in the hope (not guarantee) that everything that was might be restored, lack a firm grasp on reality. The morals of a self-proclaimed godling (the Ancients, not Zodiark) are suspect.

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Zodiark has a will though. Just like any other primal, the only thing he’s lacking currently is a heart or in other terms, controller. The primal is summoned based on intention/imperative of the summoners which was Salvation. Heart or not doesn’t change that, so it does have a moral compass to a degree.

If the very people who practiced Creation Magic are the architects of their own Final Days through their own actions; who them summoned a being by sacrificing themselves which tempered the rest?

Yeah, I'm sure he's a Great guy. /s

Against my better judgment, since I'm just waiting around for the servers to go back up, I may as well offer up my two cents...

Only, I don't really have much to say about this. I mean, what's there to say? If I were to examine all of Zodiark's actions and behavior from a neutral perspective, I could not possibly conclude that he is evil—the subject of sacrifices aside, evil people don't save the world from impending annihilation or restore life to a dead planet simply because they were asked to. Nor do they wait patiently while the subjects who have asked them to perform such miracles in the past debate on what their next course of action should be. The worst things I could say about him are, as follows:

1. He tempered the Convocation of Thirteen. This is bad regardless of his intent, and is only mitigated by the possibility that the tempering took place due to the act of summoning him rather than as a willful act on his part.
2. He required sacrifices to be made to him in order to act, instead of sacrificing his own power. This is mitigated by the fact that we don't have a full understanding of the Final Days or the power needed to prevent it or restore the world from the state the Final Days left it in, which segues nicely into...
3. Zodiark himself is an enigma. His power, motivation, personality, and goals are all completely opaque. All we know about him is how the Convocation intended to use him, what they wanted him to be when they summoned him, and the identity of the man who served as his heart when he was summoned. That's not enough to make any sort of judgment call on his morality.

By contrast, Hydaelyn has been an active agent in the story at several points, and at every point where she's done so, she has portrayed herself and her enemies in a certain light. She is the Ultimate Good, and they are the Ultimate Evil. And it is very, very easy to believe her on this, if not because of stereotypes regarding the elements she and Zodiark represent, then certainly because her enemies do themselves no favors. They cackle and scheme like villains. They manipulate people on an individual and societal level towards their own destruction. The majority of them make no effort to be understood, and the few that do either come across as insane (Lahabrea) or unreasonable (Emet-Selch and especially Elidibus).

But because of all the developments Shadowbringers has brought forward in regards to Hydaelyn and Zodiark's creation and purposes has, at least for me, destroyed the perception of Hydaelyn as the Ultimate Good. Just the fact that she's a primal, with all that has ever entailed in the story, is enough for that. But she's also at best someone who is completely ignorant to the facts of her own creation, and at worst an outright liar who willingly misinforms and misleads those who trust her at her word in order to keep them in line. This is not helped by the fact that the motive for her summoning that casts her in a favorable light is supplied by none other than Emet-Selch, one of her detractors and someone routinely dismissed as unreliable on all matters related to her. By contrast, the motive that casts her in a much more ambiguous light is supplied by her own creator and summoner, Venat.

And I do mean it when I say that motive is ambiguous. There are such glaring holes in the logic of "The Final Days could return. We need a permanent solution. My solution is to create Anti-Zodiark to seal away Zodiark." that Venat's character can be interpreted in any number of ways. Is she the true Ultimate Good behind Hydaelyn? Is she advocating for the path of Lesser Tragedy? Is she out of her depth or mistaken as to what's going on? Is she actually the Shoebill? Anything is possible.

But frankly, I don't think they can salvage Hydaelyn's reputation at this point without it coming across as walking back... well, the entirety of Shadowbringers. The most I could hope for in that regard is distancing Venat from her own creation, while pushing the "Actually good all along" stuff onto Venat and using Hydaelyn's nature as a primal to explain away the inconsistencies between her words and her deeds.

I also don't think she's evil just because she's not good, by the way. If I had to phrase my beliefs in a snappy sentence, it would be something like "Zodiark is at worst somewhere in the middle, while Hydaelyn is at best somewhere in the middle." That can change, of course. And maybe that would make for an interesting story. That's all I really want out of FFXIV, anyways. I'm not looking to this game to reinforce my own morals, or to inform me what and how to think.

… the servers have been back up for a while now, so I guess I'll end my thoughts there.