5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

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Originally Posted by Kieren-Dohla

Jobs can be more interesting to play if they have some even minor support vs worrying about dps for savage which I don't even do. Otherwise we can just strip everything down, have the same basic structure, kept the jobs 100% focused on their main purpose and have them be boring.

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By that logic, wouldn't item based raise make more jobs interesting to play by adding an extra support function to all of them? SMN/RDM wouldn't lose their ability to raise either, it would just switch from a spell to an item cast and couldn't be swifted. All while allowing better rdps balancing. You don't really need support abilities in specific to have unique and interesting classes. At least all the ranged classes and casters play very differently in my opinion, just by the virtue of differences in their rotations.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

By that logic, wouldn't item based raise make more jobs interesting to play by adding an extra support function to all of them? SMN/RDM wouldn't lose their ability to raise either, it would just switch from a spell to an item cast and couldn't be swifted. All while allowing better rdps balancing. You don't really need support abilities in specific to have unique and interesting classes. At least all the ranged classes and casters play very differently in my opinion, just by the virtue of differences in their rotations.

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It would be pretty cool if they made phoenix downs stackable and made the cast time 3s but made the recast time say 10 mins so that everyone has a raise but it can't be spammed.

Please stop saying you can clear with a party of underperforming job in week 1 so easily...
Unless you are the one who clear it in week 1 then maybe you are just too good for the rest of us

Correct me if I’m wrong here, didn’t they want to move away from the dps meta in their content? Because if they did want to do that, they failed.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Correct me if I’m wrong here, didn’t they want to move away from the dps meta in their content? Because if they did want to do that, they failed.

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They wanted to move away from jobs being overly synergistic, like BRD+DRG+SCH+NIN in Stormblood. They succeeded almost too well.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

... this is a seriously flawed perspective. Why bother balancing jobs period then? Who cares if Monk gets buffed come 5.1. After all, the only thing that matters is the weakest job can still clear. It doesn't matter that by switching from Red Mage to Black Mage, you make it far easier on your healers because you're more likely to skip mechanics. And it doesn't matter that even if you're one of the best Red Mages in the game, a slightly above Black Mage still does better than you.

Blaming it on the community is silly, especially when it's actually more beneficial to take two Black Mages than any of the Range.

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There is no point in balancing any further then necessary to enable all possible class combinations to clear current end game content when played at above Joe average level. There is no issue with job a perfoming better than job b that's the nature of diversity. It's those fault who lock out others bc they follow the path of least resisance. Nothing the devs can do will ever change that, there will always be someone complaining/being locked out. Albeit comps that are able to skip mechanics in current content shouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Saito_

There is no point in balancing any further then necessary to enable all possible class combinations to clear current end game content when played at above Joe average level. There is no issue with job a perfoming better than job b that's the nature of diversity. It's those fault who lock out others bc they follow the path of least resisance. Nothing the devs can do will ever change that, there will always be someone complaining/being locked out. Albeit comps that are able to skip mechanics in current content shouldn't exist.

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A job performing way better than other job is the issue. It have nothing to do with diversity. Diversity could be selfish DPS vs party buff dps, the gap have to be small enough to a point there are no significant difference of bringing one or other, Diversity could be different style of game play; range va melee, cast vs instant, dot very burst etc. Huge DPS gap is not diversity but poor balance.

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Originally Posted by Saito_

There is no point in balancing any further then necessary to enable all possible class combinations to clear current end game content when played at above Joe average level. There is no issue with job a perfoming better than job b that's the nature of diversity. It's those fault who lock out others bc they follow the path of least resisance. Nothing the devs can do will ever change that, there will always be someone complaining/being locked out. Albeit comps that are able to skip mechanics in current content shouldn't exist.

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There is no point giving a disabled kid a wheelchair or prothese because the kid can crawl. Also let's make the kid participate in a race with others able to win simply by walking.

This is the current state of DPS and you think it's normal. The example is flawed as jobs is a choice and it's a bit extreme.
But why do we need to push harder because we love a job that is underwhelming and not the DPS Pantheon?

Yes it's normal to have DPS disparities as means of support exist such as Tactician, Raising or Battle voice. Or """Mobility""" when bosses possess a hitbox large as half the arena or when monk has no positionnal 80% of his rotation. But not 10% difference.

Ranged, for example, are taxed the same way that they were in Stormblood. Do you remember Stormblood? Ranged in Stormblood had utilities much more interesting such as Dismantle, the BRD 2% Crit passive, palisade that was usefull on very few occasions but usefull. But the top of the cake was Refresh, it allowed a Healer to cast more over a fight and as such, to freely DPS.

In normal content/EX, DPS disparity is not important as the DPS requirement is very low. I often farm as a MCH, but if I was a BLM main every EX farm would go much faster. Oh wait, skip Soar.
In savage/ultimate content, DPS disparity is much more important. I don't know what your experience is in savage but believe me that if we had the DPS to skip the Black Smokes from E3S we would have cleared the content a week earlier, which is one extra week of loot.

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Originally Posted by Saito_

There is no point in balancing any further then necessary to enable all possible class combinations to clear current end game content when played at above Joe average level. There is no issue with job a perfoming better than job b that's the nature of diversity. It's those fault who lock out others bc they follow the path of least resisance. Nothing the devs can do will ever change that, there will always be someone complaining/being locked out. Albeit comps that are able to skip mechanics in current content shouldn't exist.

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Actually, there is. The devs can balance the jobs so their overall contributions are close enough no one cares. You keep insisting on blaming the community yet if there will always be someone locked out. Why isn't Warrior? It is undeniably the weakest tank yet you will never see anyone hard lock PLD/GNB which has become the de facto "meta". Why? Because the difference between all four is negligible. For argument sake, lets assume the highest rDPS possible is 17,000—which is achievable on Black Mage and Samurai, or thereabouts at least. Now lets assume the lowest—likely Dancer—brought somewhere around 16,500. Congratulations. No one cares what job you play anymore because they're all close enough it wouldn't matter. Now obviously this are just random figures I pulled but it helps illustrate the point.

You only see jobs being locked out when there exists a sizable imbalance. It's incredibly disingenuous to fault the community when, pragmatically speaking, you will have an easier time if you lock out certain jobs. What incentive does a random PF group have to bring Red Mage over Black Mage when the latter can outright die and still contribute more damage? If the only objective is to clear and nothing else. Then it stands to reason you want whatever advantages you can have to help achieve that. Taking Dragoon, Monk and two Black Mages (or even a Range despite them being weaker) makes it far easier than if you ran Samurai, Bard, Red Mage and Summoner. The latter is diversity for diversity's sake. There's no reason to take that comp beyond being nice because it's widely inferior to the one boasting the big three.

None of this touches on the fact it's a demoralizing feeling to know your preferred job brings such low damage relative to its counterpart that you switching, even if you were weaker on said job, would help your team more. A friend of mine is more than a little frustrated that all his efforts to reach 99% on Red Mage can be outdone by a slightly above average Black Mage. The same can be said for another friend who feels pretty crappy when I die and still out-DPS her (or almost) simply because I play Dragoon and she plays Dancer. In fact, just to emphasise how absurd the discrepancy is. I died two weeks ago in E3S and got a 9%. She didn't and got 94%. There was a difference of 400 rDPS between us. And I had less gear than her.

Is this ridiculous imbalance really a hill you want to die on?

A large amount of these arguments are anecdotal and heck, even most of these gaps can be made up for by having tanks/healers that are actually good at dpsing. the dps checks were slightly tight this tier, but they weren't unachievable. i saw a nin get 9% parses clear e1s-e3s just fine and dandy. it's all clearable with many comps. also, taking in 4 jobs that are utility based will bring a lot of those jobs up to the standard of the other jobs. MNK does not do higher pdps than sam, but slightly less and then there's brotherhood. the only reason mnk looks like it's massively stupidly ahead is because when it gets dance partner and drg tether, it's going to beat sam/blm. MNK is even a better dance partner because it has the fastest average GCD, so they'll often get that closed position. and if they get closed position, you might as well drg tether them too because of exponential growth. Also, that guy who said he ebat e4s on all 3 casters has 0 logs. just saiyan.