Battle Reform: Auto-Attack (06/30/2011)

Sounds like haste is in the works

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Originally Posted by Capita

If you knew anything about min-maxing for endgame and were in any sort of competitive guild in any of those games you mentioned, you'd know that AA is a very important part of endgame DPS.

Actually, AA makes up a considerable amount of endgame DPS. Up to 60% of Hunter DPS (even higher for MM than SV) in WoW was AA, which is why we developed "stutter stepping". It was moving in bursts with the AA timer so we could still AA even while moving out of an AOE, for max possible DPS. It's what separated the good Hunters from the great ones, and is reflected in DPS parses. If AA is anything like other games (and you'd actually have to try really hard to make AA different), that's a considerable amount of DPS lost if you're limited to just abilities unless they super buff our abilities to hit like jet-powered trucks.

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Another fundamental flaw in argument spotted. Your entire argument seems to suggest that Archer's DPS will be better if it utilizes the close range AA fists, thus putting itself at risk by getting up close and personal, all being besides the point that an archer at close range is lulz.

The fundamental flaw here is - you are assuming that the AA this game will have will be anything like the dozens of other MMOs you have played. Your argument is based on the assumption that getting close for an archer will be desirable from a dps point of view, whereas I assure you it will not. No amount of AA will ever make up for the DPS Archer can do at range with it's accuracy buff, which in turn effects everything, as well as multishot.

No amount of experience in any other MMO can speak for your experience as an Archer in this one. Having played so many MMOs I would expect you to understand that better than most people. This is a different game. It functions differently. All your extensive MMO experience does for you is allow you to pick up new ones much more readily, but that will never mean you will know how to play a r50 Archer until you actually get there.

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Originally Posted by Rubicon

I get it. Some people want to play a ranger class on WoW but with FFXIV graphics. I think that sums it up.

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Sadly thats probably the case :/

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Originally Posted by Capita

I'm not talking about manually using abilities, I'm talking about Auto Attack.

Every class has to manually use their WS. That's a given. That's not what I'm complaining about. You've missed the point.

The point is that Auto Attack is Auto Attack. ARC won't have a ranged Auto Attack, which defeats the purpose of being a ranged DPS class by being forced into melee to use our Auto Attack. This isn't a problem with solo, it's a problem with endgame HNM's and dungeons.

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the point is AA does nothing to help damage for any class, and even less to help damage for an ARC. As you level on archer you realize an Archer is about picking his shots, and his time. AA does not help this. The only thing AA does in this game is make you have one less thing to do. For some classes that will be more than others.

like i told you on pug this AA will be near useless, unless they drastically alter flurry and light strike (which they may)
they have basically increased archers utility with this update. they can get in close for extra consistent free damage, or they can go at range and pick their shots, which will cost money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capita

If you knew anything about min-maxing for endgame and were in any sort of competitive guild in any of those games you mentioned, you'd know that AA is a very important part of endgame DPS.

Actually, AA makes up a considerable amount of endgame DPS. Up to 60% of Hunter DPS (even higher for MM than SV) in WoW was AA, which is why we developed "stutter stepping". It was moving in bursts with the AA timer so we could still AA even while moving out of an AOE, for max possible DPS. It's what separated the good Hunters from the great ones, and is reflected in DPS parses. If AA is anything like other games (and you'd actually have to try really hard to make AA different), that's a considerable amount of DPS lost if you're limited to just abilities unless they super buff our abilities to hit like jet-powered trucks.

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ok you dont understand this games basic attacks. it doesnt mean archer has no basic attacks, it means it will not automatically press it for them. other than that, it is virtually the same. You will manually press your basic attacks in this game. you also cannot move while shooting in this game. so having AA will not be great for that case.

Its not aion, its not WoW it has different strengths, weaknesses and playstyle choices. you may not even like this incarnation of Archer, but i can tell you right now, it is the highest DPS class. so your idea of being gimped doesnt make sense.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Another fundamental flaw in argument spotted. Your entire argument seems to suggest that Archer's DPS will be better if it utilizes the close range AA fists, thus putting itself at risk by getting up close and personal, all being besides the point that an archer at close range is lulz.

The fundamental flaw here is - you are assuming that the AA this game will have will be anything like the dozens of other MMOs you have played. Your argument is based on the assumption that getting close for an archer will be desirable from a dps point of view, whereas I assure you it will not. No amount of AA will ever make up for the DPS Archer can do at range with it's accuracy buff, which in turn effects everything, as well as multishot.

No amount of experience in any other MMO can speak for your experience as an Archer in this one. Having played so many MMOs I would expect you to understand that better than most people. This is a different game. It functions differently. All your extensive MMO experience does for you is allow you to pick up new ones much more readily, but that will never mean you will know how to play a r50 Archer until you actually get there.

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Obviously everything about AA is speculation due to the fact that it's not out yet. I'm merely voicing my opinion that forcing a melee AA on a RANGED class is redundant. It has nothing to do with how well I know my class. It's a genuine concern from a person who has played every kind of ranged class AS a ranged class.

And to the person saying I want to play WoW, no. The one thing WoW did right was balance the Hunter class around being able to shoot their main weapon's AA at a distance, and being forced to melee at close range. Using it as an excuse to bash WoW is juvenile. Give a game its credit.

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Originally Posted by Physic

ok you dont understand this games basic attacks. it doesnt mean archer has no basic attacks, it means it will not automatically press it for them. other than that, it is virtually the same. You will manually press your basic attacks in this game. you also cannot move while shooting in this game. so having AA will not be great for that case.

Its not aion, its not WoW it has different strengths, weaknesses and playstyle choices. you may not even like this incarnation of Archer, but i can tell you right now, it is the highest DPS class. so your idea of being gimped doesnt make sense.

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Sometimes I wonder if some of you ever failed reading comprehension.

You're the one who doesn't understand what I'm saying. Every other class (aside from mages) will have their basic attacks automated (because, you know, Auto Attacks are basic attacks) while we still have to manually press ours. Simple enough for you?

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Another fundamental flaw in argument spotted. Your entire argument seems to suggest that Archer's DPS will be better if it utilizes the close range AA fists, thus putting itself at risk by getting up close and personal, all being besides the point that an archer at close range is lulz.

The fundamental flaw here is - you are assuming that the AA this game will have will be anything like the dozens of other MMOs you have played. Your argument is based on the assumption that getting close for an archer will be desirable from a dps point of view, whereas I assure you it will not. No amount of AA will ever make up for the DPS Archer can do at range with it's accuracy buff, which in turn effects everything, as well as multishot.

No amount of experience in any other MMO can speak for your experience as an Archer in this one. Having played so many MMOs I would expect you to understand that better than most people. This is a different game. It functions differently. All your extensive MMO experience does for you is allow you to pick up new ones much more readily, but that will never mean you will know how to play a r50 Archer until you actually get there.

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Another thing I may add...

Even if you could get great Damage by being upfront let me ask you something:

Archers in real life... do they go straight up to a deer and say Hello Deer how are you before trying too attack it at 2ft of range? Two things wrong with that:

1) The Deer even if you get to close to it about 75ft and if your not camouflaged they will noticed you and they will either A) Run away
B) If its a Buck.. be ready for some horns depending on how aggressive the Buck is.

Lets translate this to FFXIV terms:

Bad way:

Take an "aggro" mob for example.. if you were to just charge in there and " get close" The monster is going to attack you, and Archers aren't know to sustain damaged much. So in return can cause a quick death for you.

Good way:

Have Your team, mainly your tank to gather the hate from the aggroed mob so when you shoot arrows you wont get attacked. now if the Aggro mob has an AOE based attack its best if you stay at your distance.

and also.. What would be the use of a Bow and arrow if your going to be so close that you want to kiss the monster? lol

Bow and Arrow has always been, (in real life and in games) "DISTANCE" . that is all =)

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

You're not being forced into melee.

You can't implement ranged AA on archer without screwing up multishot, which is one of archer's main sources of DPS.

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Put multishot on a charge system like quick draw from FFXI. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Capita

Obviously everything about AA is speculation due to the fact that it's not out yet. I'm merely voicing my opinion that forcing a melee AA on a RANGED class is redundant. It has nothing to do with how well I know my class. It's a genuine concern from a person who has played every kind of ranged class AS a ranged class.

And to the person saying I want to play WoW, no. The one thing WoW did right was balance the Hunter class around being able to shoot their main weapon's AA at a distance, and being forced to melee at close range. Using it as an excuse to bash WoW is juvenile. Give a game its credit.


Sometimes I wonder if some of you ever failed reading comprehension.

You're the one who doesn't understand what I'm saying. Every other class (aside from mages) will have their basic attacks automated while we still have to manually press ours. Simple enough for you?

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what exactly is it you consider AA? automated attacks? or do you mean basic attacks? I can see you arguing about having to actually press buttons yourself, but aside from that AA is not doing anything different in this game.

You may have to press more buttons on archer, thats all not having ranged AA means in this game. if you have a problem with it, its because you dont like pressing buttons, not because its going to some how gimp archers.

How can it gimp archers?

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Put multishot on a charge system like quick draw from FFXI. Problem solved.

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what do you mean by a charge system.