Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Ponies drop at a rediculous rate. They have not a single one.

Most people who do extremes at least have 1 mount. It's not completionist elitism. I'm not saying they don't have all of them, I don't have them all. They have none.

For someone to claim savage is easy as it's just memorization, you'd expect to see savage clears, primal mounts, minions from them.

They have nothing.

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I had to do roughly 150 Innocence runs before the mount would drop for me. I saw roughly 7 trumpets during that timeframe, and did not win the roll until the 7th drop of it. I don't know what you mean by 'ponies drop at a ridiculous rate.' Unless you mean ridiculous in how rarely they drop. Seems to be about 5%, maybe less. Then you have to actually win the roll vs everyone else who wants it...

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I have nothing to hide, my achievements are public. Most people claiming that endgame is easy and there isn't enough of it don't back that up with the same.

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Which is why I, a Savage raider with proof of clears, chimed in to this conversation. Then people proceeded to move the goalposts even further and say 'but you haven't beaten Ultimate though.' A mode that is static required if you want to beat it and less than 1% have completed. So it moved from having to beat Savage to discuss endgame, to having to beat Ultimate to discuss endgame. That's when it tipped me off that people just wanted to dismiss the argument altogether, and were looking for any excuse to do so.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I had to do roughly 150 Innocence runs before the mount would drop for me. I saw roughly 7 trumpets during that timeframe, and did not win the roll until the 7th drop of it. I don't know what you mean by 'ponies drop at a ridiculous rate.' Unless you mean ridiculous in how rarely they drop. Seems to be about 5%, maybe less.

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Ponies, from arr. You know, Ponies. You can solo them now and get a mount in a couple runs. Savage drops mounts. In a static, guaranteed to get one after 8 runs. They have none. They literally have nothing minion or mount from Savage content, and no recorded clears of any of them either, and hidden achievements.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Are you pugging with the same people week after week? If not, then this wouldn't meaningfully affect the outcome. Also how many people have you been outrolled by, specifically regarding savage loot people already have equipped then and there, when only two weeks have passed?

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It's a different group every week. So far I've been out rolled as follows:

Week 1 ES1 + ES2 - 6 Drops
Week 2 ES1 + ES2 + ES3 - 9 Drops
Week 3 ES1 + ES2 + ES3 - 9 Drops

Like I said, very problematic.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Ponies, from arr. You know, Ponies. You can solo them now and get a mount in a couple runs. Savage drops mounts. In a static, guaranteed to get one after 8 runs. They have none. They literally have nothing minion or mount from Savage content, and no recorded clears of any of them either, and hidden achievements.

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And that is supposed to be the measure of end game experience?

Wether or not someone has a few 1.0 Ponies?

I don't think I have any extreme mounts from Shadowbringers, Stormblood or Heavensward.

But I've completed all the extremes many times, over and over just the same.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

It's a different group every week. So far I've been out rolled as follows:

Week 1 ES1 + ES2 - 6 Drops
Week 2 ES1 + ES2 + ES3 - 9 Drops
Week 3 ES1 + ES2 + ES3 - 9 Drops

Like I said, very problematic.

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I can't seen how you can expect a more fair loot system than being at total egality with every other player that participate in the same fight as you. Being unlucky don't invalidate mathematic proof, mathematics don't care.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

It's a different group every week. So far I've been out rolled as follows:

Week 1 ES1 + ES2 - 6 Drops

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Impossible for anybody to have been wearing gear at this point as you've complained. If you have the savage ring and you're running e1s on week one, for instance, you A) Can't roll in the first place and B) reduce the total loot everyone else could get as well.

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Week 2 ES1 + ES2 + ES3 - 9 Drops
Week 3 ES1 + ES2 + ES3 - 9 Drops

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And of these 18 drops, you're telling me that there was such a significant number of people rolling on stuff they were already wearing that it's an issue?

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Like I said, very problematic.

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What's your solution that would be meaningfully different than what we have now?

In E1S there are three drops. There are eight players. A pug rotates players by the nature of it being a pug. What is a fair way for loot to work?

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Weekly caps are one of the things that lead to people feeling like they can't take a prolonged break. Want to have more than one job geared up with current BiS? Better not miss hitting a single weekly cap. Thankfully there are not a lot of weekly caps yet. But if you really wanted to promote the take a break feeling, why not just remove the caps and let people do the content as fast or as slow as they want instead of gating them?

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Because the kind of break the caps are meant to encourage is the kind that discourages you from playing continuously on one sitting for a long period of time without break. You have the dailies that act as a soft cap and the weeklies that act as a hard cap.

It is not the kind of break where you decide this week or this month or this year or even this expansion you're not playing the game. You can still decide to do that, but that's up to you. If you run out of things you want to do, you can take a break from the game, but that's not the kind of break the dailies and weeklies are meant to address.

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Originally Posted by linay

Because the kind of break the caps are meant to encourage is the kind that discourages you from playing continuously on one sitting for a long period of time without break. You have the dailies that act as a soft cap and the weeklies that act as a hard cap.

It is not the kind of break where you decide this week or this month or this year or even this expansion you're not playing the game. You can still decide to do that, but that's up to you. If you run out of things you want to do, you can take a break from the game, but that's not the kind of break the dailies and weeklies are meant to address.

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And we all know how beloved the exhaustion system of 1.0 was right? That was a system designed around encouraging shorter play sessions.

The implementation of caps and the development ideal of periodic breaks end up at odds with each other. As long as the caps serve as any kind of meaningful gate, they will create the feeling of having to meet the cap within that set period or end up feeling behind. Set the caps too loose and they may as well have not existed in the first place.

Granted, this usually impacts primarily those interested in keeping up with the current endgame, but this is a thread about endgame content. However in more predatory mobile style games, those same caps are used to not encourage breaks but to get people to spend money because if they don't meet those caps they do fall significantly behind in ways that are impossible to make up otherwise. Which leads to the game becoming more like a job. Which is also what happened with old school raids that had weekly lockouts, combined with guilds doing their own point based loot systems. The guilds really had no quick way to get a replacement up to speed for their progression teams thanks to the lockouts, which made the raiding feel more like a job than a game to a number of people over time. It was all about being there on raid night, prepared, and performing consistently, in order to get the high end progression, with one chance at loot per cap cycle. Imagine just how different things may have been if the groups could have reset their current raid instances more at will and progressed at their own rate instead.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

The implementation of caps and the development ideal of periodic breaks end up at odds with each other. As long as the caps serve as any kind of meaningful gate, they will create the feeling of having to meet the cap within that set period or end up feeling behind. Set the caps too loose and they may as well have not existed in the first place.

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just want to share this
I must say I enjoy the weekly cap
most of the MMO i use to play have no weekly/daily cap, and I have to login everyday and clear content till I got the loot that day, because if I miss a day I am behind, if I miss 2 days, I am seriously behind, and the static raid group feel like a 2nd job
the weekly cap I have 7 days to get my loot, I can have a life outside MMO.
Weekly cap, some players like it, some don't. I believe it will never have a definitive solution to please everyone

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

just want to share this
I must say I enjoy the weekly cap
most of the MMO i use to play have no weekly/daily cap, and I have to login everyday and clear content till I got the loot that day, because if I miss a day I am behind, if I miss 2 days, I am seriously behind, and the static raid group feel like a 2nd job
the weekly cap I have 7 days to get my loot, I can have a life outside MMO.
Weekly cap, some players like it, some don't. I believe it will never have a definitive solution to please everyone

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That sounds like you were dealing with a hidden daily cap. IE a resource that is only gotten from their finite daily quests, in a predetermined amount. Still a cap, just the devs not being up front about it, much like how some of those predatory P2W mobile games work.

So there was a cap in place, just not an obvious one.