Would you like an in-game parser?

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

We had already an official statement in the forum confirming this

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Kicking someone from a party for playing poorly isn't harassment.

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as a valid reason to kick.

Seems some already have forgotten this.

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Yes, and no. Someone deliberately playing poorly, someone deliberately not trying; in order to annoy others and disrupt their play is both a valid reason to kick and easily defended.

Not playing up to some arbitrary standard that you have in your head about how they should/should not play, isn't a valid reason to kick and you can be reported for griefing because you are disrupting another player's game.

I wish that people would listen, hear and understand when 'official' statements are made instead of only hearing what they want to hear.

Could poor play be a valid reason for kicking someone? Yes it could. Could being kicked because you don't meet someone's arbitrary standard of goodness be a valid reason for reporting someone for harassment? Yes it could.

I think everyone needs to think before kicking. Just because you can convince a majority of players in a party that it's easier to kick someone than continue with them, doesn't make you right. You have the ability to remove players, what matters is how you use that ability and when.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If you one-shot the encounter then there's no real way to kick a 1-2-3 DPS so they get a free pass. This, however, doesn't mean that it's okay for one member of the team to kick rocks while the rest of the team is putting in effort. It's like playing basketball and one of your team members decides he wants to do cartwheels - even if you win, it wasn't cool of that dude to goof off. XIV, and to an extent most modern MMOs, don't have a focus on teamwork anymore so people think that they don't need to work as a team. "Sure, DPS A isn't pulling his weight, but we beat the boss so why does it matter?", you think and then DPS A goes off to join other DF groups with more of his kind and then DPS A's mentality floods half a group forcing that group to constantly wipe because of them. Had they learned what they were doing wasn't a good thing they would actually try to improve, and if you can visually see that your DPS numbers are lower than the rest of the DPS you'll know exactly what you need to improve on.

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That's why you get a static and do content with them, you are paying a sub, so are bad players, every MMO has bad players, if you can't deal with them make a group of good players and go do your stuff, no one is forcing you to play with them, from the moment you use DF you are risking meeting those people.

Like i said they are paying a sub which contributes just like you for a better game, you can't force those people out just because they're bad, if people keep getting kicked they'll give up on the game just because "some" people don't realize they can make a group and do the duties instead of using DF.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This is partly true, but partly wrong. Yes, healers should be DPSing, tanks should be stance dancing, etc. etc. But that doesn't excuse DPS to play poorly. As an example if you have proper healer DPS, proper tank DPS, and 3 out of your 4 DPS are doing alright... then that 4th one who's doing cartwheels is making the run slower, forcing you to see more mechanics, and increasing the odds that you'll wipe or someone will die to them. The shorter the fight, the better.

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It's not wrong, we're talking about Normal not Savage, stuff doesn't hit as Hard so there's less to Heal, if the healers are not DPSing even if for a bit, at least one of them, they're also doing a bad Job, especially Scholars with their MP management and Lustrate, even i DPS and use Selene in normal and people don't die, this on min ilvl (230) required to enter.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

With all those same conditions and all the DPS putting in work then you've got a much more stable, condensed fight that has a higher chance of getting beaten.

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Things will be slower, people will die, Tanks won't use Cooldowns (yes because there's only bad DPS, not bad Tanks or Healers), lose aggro, run around the boss in circles (this was common in ARR for some reason lol), fight for aggro, don't Tank swap, WHM that don't know how powerful Regen is, Scholars that only use EOS and the list goes on.

How many times did i queue for leveling roulette and got into boring Dzemael and Aurum vale, where then i have to aggro every mob "coz exp" and then people do low DPS and i'm stuck with them for 1h, not to mention them not eating the fruit and killing last Boss adds before they pop in Aurum Vale.

Welcome to DF, if you go in expecting everyone to be End Game Raid material then perhaps you shouldn't use DF at all.

There's a reason parsers are considered against ToS now when at the beginning, they weren't. Too many were being removed from parties and excluded from content because they weren't meeting arbitrary numbers players were imposing on others. "You're not pulling 500 DPS minimum, get out." Even if the player was doing mechanics correctly or their gear wasn't quite up to snuff (because back in Coil days, RNG drops were far more of a thing than they are now with Alex's page drops and primals dropping tokens too), so they only did 498 DPS.

The thing is, it still happens- people being removed for poor DPS. They just have to be careful about what they say, if anything, as to why people are removed from a group. My only concern is, if public mentioning of parsing were allowed again, if people don't meet certain numbers, will the rampant removal happen again? If it will, it's best to leave parsers as a 'use at your own risk' tool.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

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I've been kicked for poor play. Maybe I'm special, but rather than think "That's not fair", I took it and worked on improving. It's a motivation, and it makes people improve. If you don't want to improve and play well, play a single player game. Skyrim doesn't care about your poor play, but teammates are counting on you.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Could poor play be a valid reason for kicking someone? Yes it could. Could being kicked because you don't meet someone's arbitrary standard of goodness be a valid reason for reporting someone for harassment? Yes it could.

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This depends on what you define as arbitrary. If, say, you are doing an ex primal. Your party finded group is failing a DPS check. You look at the parser and you see 4 DPS (will put them as relative values to top DPS, rather than an actual number). DPS 1: 100%, DPS 2: 95%, DPS 3: 93%, DPS 4: 63%. Would it be arbitrary to kick DPS4 in this situation, as you are missing a DPS check and they are clearly underperforming relatively to the rest of the party?

No, because it is against TOS and will promote arsehats.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I've been kicked for poor play. Maybe I'm special, but rather than think "That's not fair", I took it and worked on improving. It's a motivation, and it makes people improve. If you don't want to improve and play well, play a single player game. Skyrim doesn't care about your poor play, but teammates are counting on you.

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Actually, my point had been if someone is doing everything they can to play at their best, but gear or simply getting all the mechanics limits your DPS and then you're further pressured to meet a certain number requirement that can be as silly as getting a lucky critical or not means getting excluded from content, that is a flaw. Especially when you pair this information with people that don't exactly understand class capability or group composition. They just see people who have high numbers on a website and say "you need to be here" without looking at the log and seeing why they are there.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

This depends on what you define as arbitrary. If, say, you are doing an ex primal. Your party finded group is failing a DPS check. You look at the parser and you see 4 DPS (will put them as relative values to top DPS, rather than an actual number). DPS 1: 100%, DPS 2: 95%, DPS 3: 93%, DPS 4: 63%. Would it be arbitrary to kick DPS4 in this situation, as you are missing a DPS check and they are clearly underperforming relatively to the rest of the party?

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If you're using parser data as a reason to kick, I think you already know the response.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

If you're using parser data as a reason to kick, I think you already know the response.

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We're talking hypothetically if parsers are added. You said that poor play is only a valid reason to kick someone if they are intentionally playing bad, but not if it is to an arbitrary standard. I wanted to know if you feel that not having the ability to complete the duty counted as arbitrary. It sounds as if you do.

Personally, I find that an odd stance, but at least we cleared it up.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

That's why you[...]

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The excuse that "DF matches you against random people, you shouldn't expect the party to be good" is really flawed. I always expect the party to be good, because I expect if you're going to be participating in team-based content then you're going to want to play your part in said team. If you don't, then I will give you advice or ask you to participate if you're just doing cartwheels. If then you decide to still play poorly or not at all, then I'm starting a vote dismiss on you. You bring up "he pays the same sub you do, you're both equal" - but what you're ignoring is that kicking someone isn't down to just one player deciding to boot someone, it's a vote. If the team thinks your mentality/playstyle doesn't mesh well with theirs, then they have every right to remove you from it.

Willfully ignorant players should be held accountable for their actions - this applies across the board to tanks, healers, and DPS. This is why the JP DF scene thrives - everyone feels like they need to play their part and if they mess up or under perform they feel guilty about it, they don't just go "meh w/e still won doesn't matter lololol".