Damage is among the most important aspects when differentiating between tanks. If DRK has DPS as its "special niche" that outweighs the other tanks better defensive capabilities, it will be in EVERY DAMN RAID STATIC for the only content that matters in FFXIV: Savage and Ultimate.
Dark Knight Megathread
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12-11-2021, 04:57 AMNiyuka
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12-11-2021, 05:05 AMShurrikhanAnd, thereafter, will lead to the accelerated burnout of many of our tanks since they're obliged to play a job they do not enjoy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Niyuka
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12-11-2021, 05:29 AMShin96
Fun comes first. I remember SMN being very strong to start with, but I just couldn't get into it.
I actually pulled a Cecil in Endwalker and went with GNB (yes it's not PLD but comes near close to me) and what can I say. At 90 it plays very smooth. You get Hypervelocity and Double Down. What did DRK get?
Bubbles and Dark Passenger 2.0. It's nothing to write home about. I feel there was potential to give us a continuation from Souleater but that didn't happen... then sharing a recast timer with Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain.. I guess Enhanced Unmend wasn't enough?
In short the developers wanted you to play anything but DRK. That's all you need to know. -
12-11-2021, 05:30 AMKalaamAnd will it make it fun to play ? For some maybe, but what if you don't care about big deeps ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niyuka
It also speaks to a larger issue, in that tanks are becoming more and more like a new category of DPS. Just like ranged are "support DPS", tanks are starting to become "doesn't get one shot DPS".
I know that everyone has to do DPS, obviously. But tanks only need to use CDs on tankbusters and that's it. No need to move bosses around, to split aggro of adds, and so on. That's a real shame. Of course this is part a job design issue, and an encounter design issue.
And as I said, if DRK is too prevalent in high end raid because it has too much DPS, it is going to get nerfed. DPS is an unreliable metric of functionnality. It is only numbers that can be changed. You could make Hard Slash deall 9999 potency. DRK would then have the best DPS of all the tanks, absolutely insane. Must pick for savage raid.
Doesn't mean it's fun. Well, it can be, if you like to see big numbers, yeah absolutely. But it is only a tiny fraction of what makes a job fun, and the easiest to adjust between patches.
It's easier to enjoy a job that has satisfying mechanics, but low DPS, than a job with high DPS and unsatisfying mechanics. -
12-11-2021, 05:42 AMCKNovel1000% wrong. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Niyuka
Repeat after me everyone! People play the job they enjoy!
DRK was a Dark Art comedy in SB yet it was in UCOB world first. The argument? "I like Dark knight"
BRD remained insanely popular in ShB despite its low damage. Why? Same reason as above. MCH dealt more damage than BRD and DNC, within world first player hands, would've been a valuable asset.
GNB was highest damage but I only raided one tier with a GNB in my party, same happened with other raider friends.
Many raiding comp were double melee when SMN/BLM were the highest DPS.
I can keep this up all day long.
XIV jobs are balanced enough so no one cares about damages. Hell, in ShB i've heard of double ranged comp.
If damage was among the most important thing to care about, why many played with a RDM or a DRK during ShB? Why BLM was the least played job despite it being top damage?
And for your information, damage are even less important in Ultimate since the DPS check is, so far, much more lenient that Savage DPS check. -
12-11-2021, 10:31 AMKiteless
The biggest problem facing DRK as a class going forward is that it's kit and niche were originally envisioned as being built around (quick thinking) resource management, where the dev team seems to be moving in a more rigid direction that directly conflicts with the variability and versatility that such a design philosophy could be built around.
Compare the HW DRK's resource management and overall flow (HW-era problems be damned) when it actually had an identity to the overall design trends of today, and it simply doesn't fit. To give the people the DRK class that they (they being those who do want a push towards that identity of resource management over whatever the current state of things is trying to be) want, you'd require quite a departure from the current trends of design for jobs in FFXIV. I'd love something more free-form and versatile in its construction, like those days of old in 3.0, but it'd require the dev team to open themselves back up to more open-ended class designs, and the increased balancing designs that come with it.
That said, if they'd not want to go down that route, then they really need to have a serious discussion amongst themselves, and maybe with the playerbase, about what they want DRK to be instead. Because right now, languishing as a muddy mess isn't doing anyone any good. You can't attempt to fulfill the class fantasy of old while constantly denying its validity on a core, fundamental level. -
12-11-2021, 01:35 PMDuskane
really hard for me to justify playing any of the tanks at the moment dont care for PLD or WAR,
while i like the aesthetic of DRK and GNB the gameplay right now isn't too fun while GNB can be solved with a simple patch, DRK i don't see any changes till second tier if any. -
12-11-2021, 05:40 PMMekhana
I'm not comfortable with DRK having good DPS because that can change very quickly with nerfs. With a crappy kit and playstyle and post dps-nerf, the job will be literally horrible.
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12-11-2021, 07:00 PMKalaam
It is true that a reactive, stance dancing DRK is likely a thing of the past. As much as this saddens me and I'll be missing proc based reactions to manage ressources.
But DRK can still be compelling to play. I still advocate for a return of Dark Art as a cornerstone mechanic, similar to Eukrasia. Rather than turning skills from "bad" to "the actual good version", change them to artificially augment the number of button. Turn Hard Slash into Scourge, Siphon Strike into a debuff strike, Soul Eater into Power Slash or vice versa. Have it consumme Dark Side meter to avoid spamming it, maybe even give it a 5 or 10 second CD.
Then, keep the Dark Art proc on a well used TBN, but remove the MP cost from it (and increase cooldown). Using TBN under Dark Art could be one instance of just making the skill stronger, but at a cost. From a 25s CD that grants a 20% shield, to a 15s CD that gives, I dunno, 40% shield that reapplies as a 20% shield when broken. That's the way a DRK could survive without a healer like a PLD would with using clemency etc. -
12-11-2021, 08:23 PMNiyuka
Ah now I am starting to understand. Since DPS is apparently not what anyone wants, but FUN, and since DRK hasnt been fun since Heavensward (which I personally agree with, but the reasons for that have a lot to do with precisely what many here are advocating, comfort and ease of play), the problem with DRK 6.0 is that its too close to 5.0 and that the other tanks got COOLER new toys than DRK?
I mean, DRK got more than was removed, its doing fine with top tank DPS in current content, and outside of these forums I dont see a shortage of DRK players either. One tank HAD to be the one where people thought it got the worse new toys. One tank HAD to be the one where people wanted a fundamental rework (although thats a demand in every single class forum, and I suspect has a lot to do with the recent influx of players from you know where), but I fail to see how the gameplay of the class fundamentally changed, or even slightly changed, for the worse since 5.5. Less charges means less spammy playstyle (something TONS AND TONS of people asked for, in this very thread nonetheless), it has better numbers, and while there is one trolly trait that really does leave a bad impression, the new toys are straight up buffs AND add a little bit of gameplay consideration too.
And since there are no raids yet, we dont know whether DRK, with the best and most interesting AOE playstyle, might (for example) be the sudden king of new boss designs - they have been rebalancing AOE capabilities to a suspicious degree, after all