"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

What should a DPS arms length be used for then? I will admit though being rushed will never feel good. I personally would not do that myself. Yet I also don't see it as something to 'punish'. However at the same time, when I tank, if I see a healer's mana low, I will wait for them.

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DPS don't *only* do 4-mans and raids. You can use it in deep dungeons and in FATEs. Deep dungeons are a great place to use all those skills like Leg Graze and Sleep.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

I just love how you're just completely justifying what so many people hate in this topic and when it comes to tanking in general.

It doesn't matter if you have arms length, don't pull for the tank.

If you want the dungeon to go smoothly, then let the tank pull simple as that. Don't run ahead pop arms length and then run it back to the tank.

As a Healer don't run ahead and then use rescue to pull a time to get them to go faster even if Sprint is down. Nobody likes being rushed.


Everything you said here basically falls under griefing.

I really hope the devs and GM's read these forum posts because I think they honestly need to increase the punishment for stuff like this since so many people here don't think making things difficult for others is a big deal.

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Pulling ahead and bringing them to the tank makes nothing more difficult. You're pretty much what I said about ego.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

What should a DPS arms length be used for then? I will admit though being rushed will never feel good. I personally would not do that myself. Yet I also don't see it as something to 'punish'. However at the same time, when I tank, if I see a healer's mana low, I will wait for them.

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Arm's length for a dps should be used to block pull and push effects from a boss.

For a tank it should be used for the same thing, and for slowing mobs on big pulls.

It is punishing because you're pressuring the tank to go at the speed that you want and some people don't like that which is why it it falls under griefing. I understand that people want tanks to go faster, but let them pull and do their job. If Sprint is down, then it's down and there's no much you can do about it. In reality when you sprint and finish off the first 2 packs in a dungeon, sprint should be ready for the next 2 packs. If someone uses it wrong, then you have no choice but to wait.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

Pulling ahead and bringing them to the tank makes nothing more difficult. You're pretty much what I said about ego.

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You get a dead dps is what you get. And made the run slower because you decided to be stupid. And you're pretty much what i mean when I said "people don't think doing things more difficult for others is a big deal"

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

You get a dead dps is what you get. And made the run slower because you decided to be stupid. And you're pretty much what i mean when I said "people don't think doing things more difficult for others is a big deal"

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If the DPS died for having done a single pull, it's a 100% because the tank and the healer deliberately let them die, which is a lot more griefing than pulling ahead of the tank. Again, if doing that makes thing THAT much more difficult for a tank past level 50, maybe that tank should consider either using Trust a bunch to practice or changing role.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

If the DPS died for having done a single pull, it's a 100% because the tank and the healer deliberately let them die, which is a lot more griefing than pulling ahead of the tank. Again, if doing that makes thing THAT much more difficult for a tank past level 50, maybe that tank should consider either using Trust a bunch to practice or changing role.

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A DPS would not pull one at a time. They would try to pull both groups back to the tank. But I digress. if you don't think it's such a big deal that's perfectly fine. But if you pull this kind of stuff in dungeons then you're going to get pulled by a GM because somebody didn't appreciate what you were doing.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

A DPS would not pull one at a time. They would try to pull both groups back to the tank. But I digress. if you don't think it's such a big deal that's perfectly fine. But if you pull this kind of stuff in dungeons then you're going to get pulled by a GM because somebody didn't appreciate what you were doing.

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The tank would have to be crawling or have forgotten they accepted the queue pop for a DPS to get so far ahead that they could pull two groups back.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

A DPS would not pull one at a time. They would try to pull both groups back to the tank. But I digress. if you don't think it's such a big deal that's perfectly fine. But if you pull this kind of stuff in dungeons then you're going to get pulled by a GM because somebody didn't appreciate what you were doing.

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And if the tank gets the habit of letting mates die because they refuse to take aggro, the tank is also gonna be pulled by a GM at some point. And I pretty much agree with Astronis, I don't know what kind of tank you're playing with for the DPS to get so far ahead that they pull both pack before the tank gets the chance to do anything. The only "valid" case I could think of is if the tank is AFK and in that case, sure, it's pretty stupid to go ahead alone and pull everything.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

And if the tank gets the habit of letting mates die because they refuse to take aggro, the tank is also gonna be pulled by a GM at some point. And I pretty much agree with Astronis, I don't know what kind of tank you're playing with for the DPS to get so far ahead that they pull both pack before the tank gets the chance to do anything. The only "valid" case I could think of is if the tank is AFK and in that case, sure, it's pretty stupid to go ahead alone and pull everything.

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So we just admitting we send malicious reports out here.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Then please by all means post a video of you doing W2W pull as a Healer on the latest dungeon and keeping yourself alive during it. If "healers are gods"

You can't and you won't.

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Ironically enough the closer you are to lv100, it gets easier to W2W without tanks as healers. Healing a 1H/3D dungeon runs are pretty fun where aggros are ping-pong'ing. A lot buttons that I almost never see its uses... finally gets their use in these cases. Deaths? Sure, more likely, but it doesn't take much to prevent those from first place.

If you want to hand out the "mission impossible"-challenges, probably pick dungeons like Bardam's Mettle, Stone Vigil, or even Mt.Gulg. Which hey, if you need to pick a dungeon selectively for this, it just shows how little the punishment there is for non-tanks to pull everywhere else; it's what 'encourages' people to pull for tanks from first place. If you want that gone, then like I've said before, resources has to be more scarce. Tanks has to be squishier/less of an immortal. Mobs needs to pummel harder. etc.

Until that happens, non-tanks pulling ahead will remain a thing - they even encourage this indirectly by designing it in a way that's impossible to overpull in modern times.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

I think the thing is for beginners, we wouldn't know either way. However, I think if anyone wants a beginner to try something out of their comfort zone, I think positive encouragement is probably the best bet. Sure, I know now that pulling big is certainly doable, but a tank in their first dungeon might not. Of course I understand if they keep doing it, then it's already time for them to break out of their shell[...]

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There's also the fact there's only one tank in every dungeon, and dungeons are the most abundant in this game. If a person starting out as a tank, chances are good they will NOT see another tank's performances. That greatly diminishes the "learning by watching"-aspect of an MMO. Some of these tanks never realize how much the devs are essentially making tanks semi-immortals in these contents way past 50 up till capstones until they start leveling another role, watch another go do W2W so seamlessly and be like "Omg you can do that???". I've had somebody back in EW who never thought to treat WAR's RI/BW as a self benediction in W2W specifically rather than 'another layer of mit' (I cringe everytime I see WARs popping BW on top of any other cds at all in W2W), which is usually the reason why even today there are still WARs failing to sustain themselves in the event their healer is gone for whatever reason.