Counter to Elitism

People who are better, should be rewarded for their efforts; and others, if they too value their efforts, should aspire to reach the same level as them.

The problem is that investing more time into a game does not necessarily mean you are better. I would rather some events require MUCH MUCH more skill and preparation and much less forgiving for failure, and also not require days of 2-4 hour long farm fests.

I can't wait till 2.0 comes out and we see some ridiculously hard content. Pple need to realize that when yoshi said speed runs nd stuff were gonna be taken out nd drop rates increased, the level difficulty would have to be raised a great deal. I foresee this making another round of QQ's and can't wait to see all the pple who are complaining about spam fests to start complaining about Overpowered raids. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The higher the percentage of HP you deplete, the better the DPS, simple.

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A parser does this. Many people already use parsers to "keep score;" isn't this the elitism you're trying to get rid of?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'm sorry, but any strategy where the BLM is supposed to take hits is a flaw in the game. For a mage, taking hits means dying,

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Taking hate doesn't necessarily mean taking hits, and taking hits doesn't necessarily mean dying. I'm wondering if you played the same FFXI I did, or maybe you didn't know any BLMs who broke out of their traditional role.

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and dying can't be a strategy.

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Now I know we weren't playing the same FFXI.

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For a dynamic system, think "Gambits" like FF XII. You can design severals "If...then..." sentences and when a player fulfill one sentence, you give him points. Higher priority sentences will yield more points. I tried to translate FFXI gameplay with a gambit system, and, suprisingly, with 15-20 sentences per job, you can cover almost any situation.

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I agree this could fulfill a bare minimum of expectation for a given job. In a vacuum. Maybe every job should have a mandatory tutorial so people would learn the basics.

But that's only the beginning. Would you consider someone familiar with the basics to "know their job?" I wouldn't.

Every WHM has regen and cure, but how many know when one is better than the other? Not many.
Every WHM can nuke, but how many know when to nuke? Only a few.
Every WHM generates enmity, but how many give a shit? The answer may surprise you.

If you are surrounded by good WHMs (I don't know why I am picking on WHM, it could be any job) you may take these things for granted--also, lucky you--but the average WHM doesn't know the finer points. Furthermore, the game doesn't actively teach new WHMs any of these things. If they had nothing more than a gambit checklist, people would carry them out for credit without understanding why/how/when these things are important. It's like those advanced combos in fighting game tutorials: sure, I performed the combo for credit, but when could I practically use this? The game doesn't say. I may as well stick to simpler techniques, right?

Ultimately, it comes down to the player's own inquisitiveness and desire to improve. Many players will do the gambits for credit and never learn a damn thing (if the gambits are meant to improve their game), but the people who really care--the people who want to "know their job"--will ask questions. Why use this spell? What's the best ability rotation? Why use gear X over gear Y? The answers are out there, but the game itself won't answer most of them.

Maybe I've gone off the rails and I'm no longer talking about mere competence. The step from competent to exceptional in XI or XIV is so small it's a wonder why more people don't take it. I don't believe a system that scores individual players would improve them unless they already had a mind to improve themselves, in which case the gambit is redundant.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Maybe I've gone off the rails and I'm no longer talking about mere competence. The step from competent to exceptional in XI or XIV is so small it's a wonder why more people don't take it. I don't believe a system that scores individual players would improve them unless they already had a mind to improve themselves, in which case the gambit is redundant.

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I agree with this. The difference between the two is small, but it requires a lot from a person. Paying attention (biggest issue), understanding your job and role, understanding the encounter, and caring enough to put in the effort to improve is more than a lot are willing to do... And is all it takes.

Easier access to information and a bit of teaching will help some, but it won't fix the issue that seems to be ADD and 'effort is bad' that effect the majority of mediocre players.

You should also keep in mind that varies person to person; for example, understanding the how/why/when and that fine line between amazing and "being okay" comes more naturally to some people than it does for others. I have noticed a lot of people, including myself, using parsers to try to understand why Gear A is better than Gear B, and when/where to use either set up, in addition to finding a skill rotation that gives you the most damage output. That fine line is also a lot of trial and error. Unfortunately there just isn't anything any of us can do to make the elitists go away, they will only simply migrate to their own circles of linkshells. If elitism is a concern of yours, perhaps you should either consider playing another game, or a console game instead, or just do your own thing and stop worrying about other people, though I personally believe that a lot of the "complaints" about elitism stems from some form of jealousy.

This all makes me think of competitions where everyone earns a medal just for participating.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

This all makes me think of competitions where everyone earns a medal just for participating.

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My husband calls this "big wiener contests" :P

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

A parser does this. Many people already use parsers to "keep score;" isn't this the elitism you're trying to get rid of?

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I'm not trying to remove elitism. As I said people generally consider Hardcore Player = Elite Player. IMO, it's not because you've done a dungeon 50 times that you're automatically good at this dungeon.
The game should not reward Hardcore player over Casual ones, but good player over...less good ones.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Now I know we weren't playing the same FFXI.

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We were playing the same FFXI. Even FFXI had some stupid strategies from a roleplay point of view. I mentionned the "dry run" precisely for this.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

I don't believe a system that scores individual players would improve them unless they already had a mind to improve themselves, in which case the gambit is redundant.

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If you get better loot by improving yourself, that's a pretty good motivation. Nowadays, it doesn't matter if you manage to beat Ifrit without any casualties, the chances to obtain a weapon are the same.

Imagine if the "gambits" list a series of actions that "you should have done" while progressing in the dungeon. (Since it's a bunch of "If...then", it reacts dynamically). If you did 100% of what "you should have done", you get à 100% drop rate. If you "missed" 50% of the "good" actions, you get a drop rate of 50%, etc...Everyone will try to hit a "perfect score". :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Imagine if the "gambits" list a series of actions that "you should have done" while progressing in the dungeon. (Since it's a bunch of "If...then", it reacts dynamically). If you did 100% of what "you should have done", you get à 100% drop rate. If you "missed" 50% of the "good" actions, you get a drop rate of 50%, etc...Everyone will try to hit a "perfect score". :p

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OR you could just learn your job.

Personally I don't think a list of "what you should have done" actions is the best way to go about this. It would be much like learning the combos in Mortal Combat, or any other combo-based game really, and after about four runs through the dungeon, you'd just be able to play your mini DDR game of "match the combos" blindfolded. That doesn't suggest much of a challenge, but rather, routine. I also don't think drop rates should be affected by the amount of damage you do or the number of combos you preform. Dungeons take a team effort to complete it. It doesn't matter if you are new or a veteran group to a dungeon/boss fight/ etc. It has always been based on team work (and an extremely random item generator). The reward was the time bonus. If you completed this AV in this amount of time, then MAYBE the generator would be nice and drop a Corselet.

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Originally Posted by Minai

OR you could just learn your job.

Personally I don't think a list of "what you should have done" actions is the best way to go about this. It would be much like learning the combos in Mortal Combat, or any other combo-based game really, and after about four runs through the dungeon, you'd just be able to play your mini DDR game of "match the combos" blindfolded. That doesn't suggest much of a challenge, but rather, routine. I also don't think drop rates should be affected by the amount of damage you do or the number of combos you preform. Dungeons take a team effort to complete it. It doesn't matter if you are new or a veteran group to a dungeon/boss fight/ etc. It has always been based on team work (and an extremely random item generator). The reward was the time bonus. If you completed this AV in this amount of time, then MAYBE the generator would be nice and drop a Corselet.

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Well said.

Not to mention the fact that it would be extremely hard to maintain such a system, seeing as how there are a lot of groups that are extremely diverse. For starters, if it's based on how much damage you do, then does that mean healers don't get a shot at the drop? Or, if damage dealers get a shot at a drop that's for damage dealers and healers get a shot at items that are for healers, then what about off healers? Off healers simply don't get a shot at the item? What about the damage dealers that have a healing ability and serve to heal in case of a crisis , like the death of the main healer? They don't get a shot at either kind of drop because they played the "jack of all trades" role in the fight? Then there's the tanks. Their job is to absorb damage and taunt the enemy, not to hurt the enemy all that much, that's for the damage dealers to do. And certainly not for healing. So, what do we base their drop rate on? How much damage they absorb? And what about if the tank doesn't do his job well and a healer or DD dies and they can't heal or DD for a good portion of the fight until they're rezzed? Does that mean they simply miss out, even though it wasn't their fault they died?

See, too many factors to consider. Too many things can happen to base a drop rate on a score of how everyone did in a dungeon run. It's a bad idea.