Jobs and Class, I am nervous now.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

You don't get to determine what is response worthy or not. If the community reps feel it is response worthy, they will provide one. If they don't, they don't.

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Four

Days

:D

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Originally Posted by fusional

okay so cnj can possibly do more damage in zaharak which clearly matters a whole lot. meanwhile show me a cnj doing 40 dps (or even 30 for that matter) on ifrit? 65+ dps on moogle?

-_-

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I am sure there could be a cjn that could do the damege, if people let them and if they were geared correctly.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Pretty sure fire gets blown out by wind. But like I said in my original post the only time White mage should out damage a black mage is against the undead. Absolutely nothing else. Which is why original I was made that the elements got split out, but I got over it because Cjn and Thm weren't in roles yet of healer or DD.

Now we are getting jobs for roles, and it looks like White mage could keep damage on any mob weak to stone or aero. And that is bullshit,

Black mage should atleast get all elementals spells with Ga level as well, because it's role is DD and nothing else. It brings absolutely nothing else! While if you look at some other jobs. War Tank or DD, Bard DD or support,
Monk tank or DD, Paladin can really only tank as well but atleast it gets classes that can share useful abilities. Unlike black mage with pug, besides second wind, every other ability is useless to black mage. Dragoon is also only DD, but melee in the long run can out damage black mage because of MP issues. It's supposed to be the highest combo damaging class.

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It seems like you're basing a lot of your ideas off of FFXI on what should and shouldn't be. Just because black mages had every element in ffxi doesn't mean they should in this game. I'm pretty sure black mages in fftactics only had ice, thunder, and fire. Black mages don't only bring DD to a party either; they bring AoE crowd controls (blizzara and sleepaga.) The only other form of AoE crowd control are short stuns from legsweep, bard's new weaponskill, and whm's aoe bind that drains all mp. Your original post asked how these jobs are supposed to improve party play. More damage isn't the only way to improve party play. Better CCs help a lot too.

Thaumaturges already do amazing damage. If you're not satisfied with it, you may be playing it wrong o_O.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Pretty sure fire gets blown out by wind. But like I said in my original post the only time White mage should out damage a black mage is against the undead. Absolutely nothing else.

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Yeah, maybe in XI (or any other FF game). Also I remember Fire spells (and Thunder too?) was pretty dirty against undead as well. Not to mention, this is XIV. Now don't get me wrong I loved XI and the mage-jobs they had in that game, but this is a new FF game that is still (IMO) being created/developed.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Which is why original I was mad that the elements got split out, but I got over it because Cjn and Thm weren't in roles yet of healer or DD.

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(I assumed you meant to type "mad" [bolded]; not trying to be spelling/grammar police, just making sure I interpreted it correctly)

I mean, really, it should have been clear by then that CNJ was going to fit into WHM and THM was going to fit into BLM. I can't say I was mad that they did that; surprised, yeah, but not mad.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Now we are getting jobs for roles, and it looks like White mage could keep damage on any mob weak to stone or aero. And that is bullshit,

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Why do you think it's bullshit? Just above you asserted that the only time a WHM should out DD a BLM is against undead; assumingly since [historically] they're weak to Holy-based spells. So now instead of WHMs being strong against just one category of mobs having a weakness to Holy-based spells, in this game they're strong against two types of category of mobs having a weakness to Stone-based spells and/or Aeor-based spells. Is one more category really that big of a deal?

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Black mage should atleast get all elementals spells with Ga level as well, because it's role is DD and nothing else. It brings absolutely nothing else!

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I would have to disagree on both accounts.

First, there have been other FF games where the BLM (or w/e the "nuker" was) didn't have the entire elemental wheel (as we knew it in XI). FF Tactics comes to mind (just because I played it last week, heh!) - the BLM job only had Fire, Ice, and Thunder nuke-type spells (I say nuke-type because it had other "offensive" spells like Poison, etc.)

Second, it does too bring something else to the table besides DDing - CCing (e.g., Sleepga, Bindga). From what we know currently, BLM will be the only job that can effectively crowd control. Obviously it's just one spell, but once the level cap is raised (again, assumingly) how do you know they won't get other spells? (Gravityga, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

While if you look at some other jobs. War Tank or DD, Bard DD or support,
Monk tank or DD, Paladin can really only tank as well but atleast it gets classes that can share useful abilities. Unlike black mage with pug, besides second wind, every other ability is useless to black mage. Dragoon is also only DD, but melee in the long run can out damage black mage because of MP issues. It's supposed to be the highest combo damaging class.

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Yes I agree that WAR can [probably] tank or DD, but I'll bet you that it'll be much better at DDing in general than it would be tanking - especially compared to PLD - or at least I'll be hella surprised if it's a better tank. And I agree again, Bard can [probably] DD or support, but again I'll bet you that it'll be much better at providing/focusing on support in general rather than trying to match DD with the rest of the "DD Jobs"; especially if you consider that it can only take abilities from CNJ and THM (that is, no Keen Flurry for Quick Knock's long-ass CD, no Blindside, no Blood for Blood, etc. etc.). And so on and so on for MNK, and the other DDs (though, it seems like DRG will just solely be a melee, DD power-house - guess we'll find out though either way!).

All in all man, respectfully, it just seems (to me, at least) that you are/were expecting the FFXI BLM when really we're getting a different form of a FF BLM; one that IMHO relates more closely to the BLM in FFT. And again, I loved playing XI and playing all the mages, but the BLM in that game isn't FF's "Flagship BLM", so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I'm pretty sure that's his point. But one would think that BLM, supposedly THE magical damage dealer role, would be stronger in dealing magical damage than a WHM regardless of elemental affinity. However, the video this thread refers to depicts BLM doing the same kind of damage THMs do, so it stands to reason that WHM will do the same amount of damage as CNJ with their respective spells.

Now, if a WHM is able to outdamage a BLM in Zahar'ak, the question then becomes: Why bring a BLM to a Zahar'ak party? WHM will not only outdamage them but can also heal/raise.

This is largely conjecture but it is still a valid point/question based on what information we have been shown/given and should be answered.

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If his point is a question like "are there any other classes that can do better in this role for this fight than black mage?" should never come up, then black mages are too powerful and we will continue to see fights like ifrit where thaumaturges are stacked.

And yea... why bring a blm to a zaharak party? For their amazing damage and CC!

This is an old thread I've made to adress that exact argument about BLM having all elements
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...tasy-Tradition.

EDIT: Quoted wrong post, lol

Don't forget about Job Specific Equipment. It's supposed to be better than multi-meld equipment. If you take a THM in their melded gear and pit them against a BLM in their JSE, I'm sure the BLM will do a lot more damage. We still don't know the JSE stats. It's very possible the BLM set could have stats like -X% MP cost of spells, great amounts of MATK Potency and MACC. It could even have an enhanced auto-refresh feature or build on other traits.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

That movement while casting video has made me very extremely nervous on how jobs are supposed to improve party play, or anything else at that matter. After watching it and noticing a few things it makes me wonder... how?

The job we see attacking the kobolds is a black mage. If you look at the level bar in the video it's a purple comet (color blind it may be blue). If you were a thaumaturge it would be the flaming torch symbol.

The second thing I noticed is he used spells after showing that they can be canceled while moving. The damage he displayed as a black mage... is what bothers me the most... it was the same damage amount I can do to them now. The other thing was the mp cost of the spells, if you look hard enough it's still exactly the same amount. How does Black Mage improve from Thaumaturge?

Ancient magic spells, 15 minute recasts. Freeze seems to be the only good one. If Convert generates tons of hate it's better to use freeze, than burst. Burst you might end up kill yourself. Flare... fire aoe with a DoT effect. Great job, make sleepga useless, and wipe your whole party. Can't tell you how many times I have heard/seen a dynamis wipe when someone used poisonga II.

Jobs are supposed to bring roles, White Mage is the healer, and Black Mage the elemental damage dealer. If jobs don't add to damage, or cut mp cost to certain spells. Situationly, White Mage can out damage a black mage, and I am sorry, gonna make alot of people made with this, this should ONLY happen at one time, and only one time. When you fight the Undead. The fact that Cjn can out damage Thm in places like Zahar'ak, I can live with that I guess, because we aren't in roles yet. Though when we are Black mage/ White mage roles, my damage should almost always, 99.9% of the time outdamage white mage.

We have two options from Reinhart's thread that we either only get to cross -class either 5 abilities, or can only cross-class abilities from the classes that the job requires. Pugilist for Black Mage is a seriously dumb decision. Some people in another thread said Blind side can be useful for black mage. It isn't, it clearly states it doesn't work with spells. If we can only cross class for the two classes, second wind is useless. Go ahead and smack Ifrit or moogles and see how fast you lose more hp trying to heal yourself without invigorate.

If you can choose 5 abilities from any class, that would be slightly better but not much. As Blm I guess I would have Invigorate, Second Wind, Sentinel, Chameleon, raise. Look what I don't have now, cure or stoneskin. So I have to make even more sure in fights like Ifrit I don't get caught in an eruption. Cause I can't cure myself constantly. Even after Hellfire I will have low Hp since I didn't have Stoneskin, Sanguine Rites, with Sentinel.

So how do jobs help with their roles when they gimp your abilities, give no damage increase, no mp cut to certain spells.

I am just really also bothered by how no one else seems to care/notice. Everyone was upset with how much spells cost when the patch 1.20 came out. And We see there has been nothing done about it in that video with the black mage. With only 4 days left before the patch, how can it be drastically changed to prove me wrong? Why be a job, when a class can do it the same, and have more freedom with cross class?

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Mega-Ether is coming :) cant wait to see how much its going to recover hehe

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Originally Posted by Lauro

Mega-Ether is coming :) cant wait to see how much its going to recover hehe

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150 MP - 15min delay

From what I'm gathering, you are sacrificing versatility for efficiency.

By equipping a job, you may lose your ability to raise... but gain boons elsewhere. If your group is FLAWLESS, you'll be able to kill faster, and with ease... but if someone dies? Not everyone can raise anymore, and not everyone can cure anymore. Fights will be much harder because if you are not PERFECT in your strategy, your group will surely wipe. The current setup leaves room for error. Oh, did you die from a pomflare? NP, anyone can raise you, and we're all on 5 minute timers. But that just isn't the case with jobs.

I am both intrigued and nervous about this. Adjusting to 'new' fights may be harder than it would have been had we all stuck with the current system. I'm thinking what may end up happening is... people will assume different jobs (or none at all!) to maintain a balance of both versatility and efficiency. In a group with two CNJ, one might go WHM while the other stays CNJ. In a group with multiple Archers, some may change to BRD while others stay strictly ARC.

I think the problem here is that too many people are assuming that just because we can USE a job means we MUST use a job during every moment of every day. In the end, it might make sense to switch on/off of your job... similar to the way a 'stance' works now.