Non-binary option for characters, please?

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Originally Posted by FFgame

Nobody cares about your gender meat popsicle! Learn how to play your job instead.

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Heresy ! The biggest non issue of this game (or real life) has been posted and you dare to come with this insult!
Btw this is not tumblr and people do have different opinions .
Also this has nothing to do that the same merry bunch which keep posting about this kind of stuff, did it again.
Nope, not one bit.
Might as well repeat : this is a fantasy game, stop bringing real life counterparts in it.

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Originally Posted by Gun-Cat

Japanese has, and uses very frequently, a lot of gender neutral terms. You are probably thinking of あたし、僕 and 俺 as terms to refere others or the different ways to call your siblings, but in the end Japanese is very gender neutral.

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I disagree. I find japanese to be one of the languages with the lowest degree of gender neutrality, to the point where certain words or expressions are directly associated to a specific gender. A japanese man using かしら or わ at the end of their sentence will be considered rather feminine. A girl using 僕 will be considered masculine, but this doesn't really stop here. The japanese language deeply reflects the japanese culture, and japanese culture is one where social differences and social standing are very important, including the difference in gender as interpreted by the general society.

The problem here is that "gender" has a precise meaning from a biological standpoint, so you can't really treat gender as a state of mind like many self-proclaimed gender neutral induviduals imply it is. You can try to "cheat" and change your gender via surgery and hormonal therapies, this doesn't change the fact that you were either born a she/he. And if you don't feel like you belong to your biological gender I will respect that, but please don't ask the world to change what the word "gender" means just because of your personal ideology or, even worse, to assume that such a biological distinction doesn't exist and is not part of the social relationships of 99,99% of the population.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

"Gender is real and that's why it can be assigned to anything and everything like something that isn't innate almost as if it were a human construct." ~Literally you not seeing how you contradict yourself.

You can type paragraphs and paragraphs all you want, you'll still be wrong, even poking holes in your own arguments, but somehow unable to see it. Like how is a boat female despite having literally no traits that can be described as feminine. Do you see a woman wearing pants and get absolutely tilted because "dresses are for girls, pants are for boys?"

Plant reproduction and sexual reproduction in general refers to sex which has nothing to do with gender because one doesn't need an arbitrary title to reproduce, they need functioning sex organs.

Loosen the MAGA hat and read a book, holy. It's not hard.

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This is unnecessarily hostile. You understand that the "human construct" argument itself is flawed right. Everything is essentially constructed by humans. The idea of time. The idea of gravity. All of it. Your attempts at derailing the conversation by derision was already anticipated.

However, because I want to help folks, I'll simplify this in the most simple of terms. Think of gender as color. For every color we have a clear and defined name. What do we call the sky and the sea? Blue. What do we call apples and sunsets? Red. Gender has that same concrete categorical property. Albeit limited to male and female and having 3 layers. The only time gender is arguable is when there are no biological indicators. So, this is only in regards to objects and ideas.

You can't simply remove the concrete categorical powers of gender. That would be like saying you can call a blue pair of jeans red.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I disagree. I find japanese to be one of the languages with the lowest degree of gender neutrality, to the point where certain words or expressions are directly associated to a specific gender. A japanese man using かしら or わ at the end of their sentence will be considered rather feminine. A girl using 僕 will be considered masculine, but this doesn't really stop here. The japanese language deeply reflects the japanese culture, and japanese culture is one where social differences and social standing are very important, including the difference in gender as interpreted by the general society.

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I can only talk about my daily office job that is completely gender neutral in comminucation either with each other or with our customers. Granted with friends you have a lot more freedom to express yourself -as you stated correctly using terms and particles- but talking about someone else you will very rarely use a gendered pronoun, and that is what I suppose this whole thread is about and the quote I was answering to said. You are naturally correct on your take regarding politeness.

As opposed to that take a language like German for example that is very particiular about gendering everything to a nonsensical degree. Fish are always masculin Fish (der Fisch), a woman is always female (die Frau) but girls are for some reason gender neutral (das Mädchen). Again this is only my point of view comparing a few languages I know if you have any other experiences I would love to hear them!

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Originally Posted by Gun-Cat

I can only talk about my daily office job that is completely gender neutral in comminucation either with each other or with our customers. Granted with friends you have a lot more freedom to express yourself -as you stated correctly using terms and particles- but talking about someone else you will very rarely use a gendered pronoun, and that is what I suppose this whole thread is about and the quote I was answering to said. You are naturally correct on your take regarding politeness.

As opposed to that take a language like German for example that is very particiular about gendering everything to a nonsensical degree. Fish are always masculin Fish (der Fisch), a woman is always female (die Frau) but girls are for some reason gender neutral (das Mädchen). Again this is only my point of view comparing a few languages I know if you have any other experiences I would love to hear them!

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I understand your point, my native language is the same in that any noun is either M or F and we don't even have a neutral gender like english does. However grammatical gender is yet another thing that may or may not be correlated with biological gender. Actually, I think this is the source of the misunderstanding. Gender neutral people, assuming this actually means anything, mistake pronouns that are used to identify a biological feature for pronouns that should be used to define a social category that is a derivation of the biological feature and other historical reasons.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Gender neutral people, assuming this actually means anything, mistake pronouns that are used to identify a biological feature for pronouns that should be used to define a social category that is a derivation of the biological feature and other historical reasons.

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You might be on point with that. I get that people want to express themself, but demanding language to accomodate to that seems weird.

My native language is heavily gendered and the neutral is less evidenced , but that's with most Latin based languages.

Funny how part of this has become rather interesting in the last part, but not because of the "cry wolf", but for the determination on where/how some languages stand.

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Originally Posted by kamenkuro

Everything is essentially constructed by humans. The idea of time. The idea of gravity.

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You're confusing 'defined' and 'constructed'. Time and Gravity both existed before humans ever evolved. You pick an item up, you let it go, it falls down. Gravity objectively exists because we don't float in space. Humans didn't construct it, we named it. We didn't invent time, though we defined units of measurements for it. Sex would fall under this as well (and even then there are exceptions to the standard male and female forms, and variations exist between species).
Gender does not. As is evident by what is considered feminine and masculine changes over time period and location. Pink used to be a masculine color. Guys used to wear high heels. Those things change.

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Think of gender as color. For every color we have a clear and defined name. What do we call the sky and the sea? Blue. What do we call apples and sunsets? Red.

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It's funny that's your example because we can't actually prove that two people see the same color. They just both know to call the ball they're seeing the color on by that name because it's a social agreement that that color, whatever it looks like to them, is "red". Regardless if what I see it as is closer to what you see as blue.
Another thing that's amusing in your example is that words by definition are context-driven. There are Eskimo tribes that have fifty words for snow. Because in their society, the nuances and contexts of snow matter much more than they do to people who live in other places and speak other languages. So you saying 'there is only male and female' isn't so much fact as it is a testament to the society and political climate you live in.

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Originally Posted by FFgame

Nobody cares about your gender meat popsicle! Learn how to play your job instead.

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"What's your gender?"
"Black mage"

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Originally Posted by Gun-Cat

girls are for some reason gender neutral (das Mädchen). Again this is only my point of view comparing a few languages I know if you have any other experiences I would love to hear them!

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...I know that this is totally not adding to the discussion at hand, but just on the off-chance that someone is intrested in why "Mädchen" is gender-neutral in german: "-chen" is a special diminutive ending that you can put together with a noun. It automatically makes the word "gender-neutral" or at least gives it gender-neutral pronouns/the gender-neutral article "das" ("der Fisch" - "das Fischchen").

"Mädchen" is most likely derived from the word "die Magd" (maid; but also just a young, unmarried woman) - so: Die Magd - Das Mä(g)dchen. And it just ended up sticking as the word we're using for girls now.

But you're correct - everything in german is highly genderd, even when it makes little sense... our dogs are all male (der Hund), cats are all female (die Katze) and children simply have no gender (das Kind).
Gender-neutral options pretty much dont exist - sometimes I envy the english language for having "they". Not so much because of the topic at hand but more so because that way I can refer to people ingame without knowing their gender. Personally it doesnt bother me when someone refers to me as "he", but I may also not react to it, because as female I'm obviously not used to being adressed as "he" ("Oh, you were talking about me? Yeah, sure, sure can do that")

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Originally Posted by Qojon

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Wew lad, trying a bit too hard there.