Open world PvP Zone

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Any other MMO I only play on a PvP server. WoW I was PvP centric and enjoyed the areas that were *problem* areas. It takes tact, strategy, and craftiness.

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I've played EVE and several korean PVP MMOs, and there was very little "craftiness." There's a reason why people complain about blobs in pvp games...pvp in MMOs almost always devolves into a numbers game. The only time it doesn't is if they enable mass disparities in power via grinding, and that ends up worse. I played Aion at launch, and there was no tact in dealing with rifts; you either got ganked or ganked, until the high levels came in.

As for flags...have you never played a pvp game with flagging? Half of it is people abusing the flag system in one way or another, or taunting people to drop their flag. Or hoping you had a second free to turn your flag off to avoid getting spawn camped. There's no real effective solution to the problems of open world, which is why so much PvP is arena-based now.

Open world pvp didn't die as a game design in MMOs for no reason. If they introduced it here, we'd just relive the same problems that it had until it more or less died.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

I just don't understand the opposition to this idea. People really think adding a PvP zone is going to stop new dungeons from coming out? Do PvE'ers really think that a PvP zone is going to somehow reach across the instance line and gank their ass? Then spawn camp them at their home aether crystal? Kill and tea-bag their daily duty roulette dungeon party? Rofl-stomp you trying to gather an unspoiled node?

Apologies, feeling /rant-y today.

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Trust me I have had to edit/ re-edit/ and think through everyone response because the people who are opposed to this are unwilling to compromise at all.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I've played EVE and several korean PVP MMOs, and there was very little "craftiness." There's a reason why people complain about blobs in pvp games

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There is craftiness. Gromgol Basecamp in WoW was notorious for people coming through and ganking new players. The craftiness is the art in how you avoid campers to complete your objective. I rarely ran across Blobs in WoW. If anything it was 3-5 man teams that would hit up players.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

I just don't understand the opposition to this idea. People really think adding a PvP zone is going to stop new dungeons from coming out?

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Considering this game has some serious issues with generating content, yes. And there has been some serious argument about things like squadrons and lord of verminion distracting dev time from making good pve content. They can't really afford to make an open world pvp zone that might end up as empty as the duelling arena or diadem

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There is craftiness. Gromgol Basecamp in WoW was notorious for people coming through and ganking new players. The craftiness is the art in how you avoid campers to complete your objective. I rarely ran across Blobs in WoW. If anything it was 3-5 man teams that would hit up players.

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The craftiness in other words is avoiding other players and avoiding pvp in order to do your pve objective because you have no chance to really escape or resist as little as 3-5 players after you. It wouldn't even work in FFXIV because the power gap between levels is so great that you couldn't even run. Level 50 people have about the same HP as a level 70 gatherer. In the games I played, it really ended up in people having to constantly escape any PvP at all from others, or they were the groups ganking people who were trying to run. That gets old pretty fast, and there's a lot less subtle gameplay in that than you think.

Trying to do that in FFXIV would be a nightmare. Imagine Diadem, but with other players killing you every time you tried to fight a mob spawn or gather at node. That's what we'd get.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Considering this game has some serious issues with generating content, yes. And there has been some serious argument about things like squadrons and lord of verminion distracting dev time from making good pve content. They can't really afford to make an open world pvp zone that might end up as empty as the duelling arena or diadem

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Or Coil, Or Alexander, or Coil Savage? Lets not forget all the ARR zones. The only reason they get visited is for hunts/seasonal events. People still go into Diadem and I see more use out of the Dueling Arena that I see parties for coil or alex. How many resources did that Dueling Arena take? I am sure it is a hell of a lot less than almost everything else in game.

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Originally Posted by Shirolumi

I think you may have misunderstood my post. PvP servers would be PvP servers. Why would anyone who's not interested in PvP join them? Same with a PvP zone. That's why it is called a PvP zone.

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Thats because world PVP just looks like a good idea. We imagine people rallying, on an all out war full of coolness, leadership and strategy. Balanced factions, people helping each other.
That doesn't exist. Theres no glory. Just shameless ganking and uninterested people. Everyone will flock to the strongest faction, since in FFXIV theres absolutely no sense of unity in the existing factions.
I got into Wpvp thinking it would be fun and awesome, the only thing i got was frustation and having to stop questing for almost a day because the opposing faction controlled the area (and that happened A LOT).

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Originally Posted by Demielle_Tournes

Thats because world PVP just looks like a good idea. We imagine people rallying, on an all out war full of coolness, leadership and strategy. Balanced factions, people helping each other.
That doesn't exist. Theres no glory. Just shameless ganking and uninterested people. Everyone will flock to the strongest faction, since in FFXIV theres absolutely no sense of unity in the existing factions.
I got into Wpvp thinking it would be fun and awesome, the only thing i got was frustation and having to stop questing for almost a day because the opposing faction controlled the area (and that happened A LOT).

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Factions change all the time though in FFXIV. You can watch Frontlines shift all the time as people don't always want to be on the strongest faction. Sometimes it is nice to be on the underdog and upset the 'strongest'. I have been part of a 8 man group fighting off another 24 man group in shatter at their base. People would get high/fever die and get rezed back up. A coordinated team is much more effective than the illusion of being the 'strongest'. I know this because I coordinate teams all the time.

Also again no one is saying to put questing in the zone.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Factions change all the time though in FFXIV. You can watch Frontlines shift all the time. Also again no one is saying to put questing in the zone.

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This month's frontline standings on primal, sorted by victory rate: the top 100 are all maelstrom. If you looked at the top 100 by GC, the lowest ranked mael is at 78% win rate, the lowest flame is at 19%. Aion only had two factions, and it got so bad that the "evil" race had barely any victories on 90% of the servers, and all clustered together on one or two of them. It can get pretty bad if there is any advantage to winning.

And yeah, they need to have some reason to even be in the zone and force pvp. Traditionally its leveling or resource gathering. When you don't have this, like in EVE, you get people endlessly roaming looking for another group to fight, like with the militias.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Factions change all the time though in FFXIV.
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Also again no one is saying to put questing in the zone.

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Thats exactly the problem. You are losing? Just change to the winning faction.
And i was talking about pvp server, not just a zone. Still i can't see the zones working, looks like a terrible frontline mode with more chances of being broken and having an overpowered faction. Can't picture something like this working for the FFXIV playerbase.
By the way, i barely saw a single match of frontlines with people that are not maelstrom even caring about winning.

Switching factions is harder to do now anyway. Well "harder". With squadrons tied to your faction I think people are going to be less willing to swap. The longer they work on their squads the less likely they are to abandon that progress. Overlooking, of course, completionists.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This month's frontline standings on primal, sorted by victory rate: the top 100 are all maelstrom.

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But it was worse months before. I am a flame and fully aware of how much Mael was winning. But during ARR Flames was the dominant one. For awhile it was Adders. It is always in flux as some of the players who help the teams dominate don't want to associate with the Sheep. It is much more fun being a Flame upsetting mael than it is being a mael and always winning. I was rank 34 on my server with a 50% win rate as a Flame. Also landing on Mael even with freelancer is almost virtually impossible. It soooo rarely happens.

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Originally Posted by Demielle_Tournes

By the way, i barely saw a single match of frontlines with people that are not maelstrom even caring about winning.

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What is winning? The team winning? Winning can be your personal objective or team objective. I have gone into matches with the shear focus of getting Battle Fever on AST. I know people who go in with the shear focus on killing people. I have also seen those people win the match as it disorients the other teams.

Like I said previously there are other people who switch factions to get away from the sheep.