Possible AST nerf

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

AST healing needs a rework like BRD got. it shouldn't have a SCH stance and a WHM stance, that's weird.

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Then what do you suggest? There's already a WHM and a SCH. Should AST then not be a healer and more of a supportive role?
I don't see the problem being a bit of both. The issue now is that SCH was OP before. Lot's of DPS, more than decent healing, afk mode (Fairy), and now they tried to somehow 'balance' that by nerfing the fairy, the shields, the dps... Not saying I am against a rework, just saying you shouldn't go nerf one job because 'it takes less development time'.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

For real? You do realize SCH is under performing right now more than AST is OP. Yeah, nerf AST so all jobs can suck equally.

On a side note, I find it funny that 2 years ago 'AST sucked please rework'. Now it's OP and everyone is crying over it.

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Two years ago I had a house of my own, a good job, and marriage prospects.

Now I'm living with my parents, single, and unemployed. A lot can change in 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Two years ago I had a house of my own, a good job, and marriage prospects.

Now I'm living with my parents, single, and unemployed. A lot can change in 2 years.

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Yeah? Can't I not be amused by it? Been an AST main since early HW.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

I personally hate that they split Synastry into 2 90 sec cooldowns. So I basically have to burn 2 cooldowns for the same effect back in HW I got with 1 cooldown. Also I liked HW Lightspeed because of Stoneskin. Now I rarely use it unless its for healer checks like Akh Morn.

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I'm referring to their 3.0 versions - Synastry was basically the same as it is now in Stormblood (no healing % buff), and Lightspeed during 3.0 also reduced your HEALING magic potency during its effect, not just DPS. Both moves received hefty buffs in 3.2.

My overarching point was more that I hate seeing people use the term "crappy AST healing" in regards to its launch status without providing any context whatsoever. AST's problem wasn't just "weak heals" - those were actually only 5% lower in the highest case than their WHM/SCH counterparts - it was crappy cooldowns and less control over procuring AOE Balance that made it shunned for Gordias. The devs didn't seem to understand the problem, so they just buffed all those aspects, and now AST is the problematic powerhouse it is today.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

If SCH and WHM are falling behind, they are the problem, they are the ones needing a buff. AST is not the one that needs to be changed.

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all 3 healers can complete the current content and will be able to also complete savage, so it's not that anyone requires buffs (although the smoothing out of clunky new abilities sure is welcomed), but if a certain class is making the meta question so easy to answer, should that power not be looked at? sometimes it's simpler to make minor tweaks to the classes but in different directions so that they can meet in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

AST aspected benefic has a 200 potency initial heal portion.
WHM regen does not. Seems like you forgotten that?

The potency of diurnal aspected benefic is actually 220 initial, 154 per tick after sect bonus. It does one less tick than regen, but the initial heal more than makes up for it, and AST has the option of using time dialation + celestial opposition every once in a while to increase duration.

Exiled_Tonberry was actually right to say that AST regen is stepping on WHM toes in the regen department. It's close when it comes to medica 2 vs diurnal aspected helios, but AST's regen equivalent is just better than WHM's for the added use of being a passable upfront heal, on top of already beating its total potency, and still having the option to extend its duration.

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You didn't really "pick apart" anything for my post. In fact it seems you have not read it carefully.

IF you notice Exiled said "more powerful healing and regens"

I knew the regens part was false since I play both so I compared them to get the numbers.

"Regens"

The initial heal on Asp. Benefic isn't a "Regen", it's an initial heal. Seems like you have forgotten that?

So you are just nitpicking now to try to prove a point (a useless point) when I was just correcting the incorrect information that AST actually has more powerful HoTs than WHM.

If you compare WHMs Regen's extra tick versus the initial heal of Asp. Benefic the result is still: Basically the same. The difference is <1%. Are we REALLY going to nitpick that? Yes, you can extend it's duration every 2 minutes, but that is a niche of AST just like WHM Lillies (and Critical heals) can lower the cooldown of Asylum/Assize. AST increases duration to get more effect and WHM can reduce the cooldown to use the effect more often. It ends up to be pretty much the same thing in the end just different methods.

*PS. No good AST would use Celestial Opposition specifically to increase regens only; nor would they use time dilation just to increase a regen either.

Thing is...why does it matter if AST and WHM heal for around the same amount with their asp benefic/regen/medica II/asp. helios regen spells?

Healing power is not the issue so why does it become one if someone just corrects incorrect information?

WHM is lacking utility. Higher healing NEVER means anything as long as the content can be properly healed. The main thing about the "meta", as people are forgetting, is the DPS that healer can contribute either by buffs or by direct healer DPS spells.

WHM has the highest healer DPS damage. It doesn't make up for Balance, but it closes the gap to closer than some people think. So WHM just needs some extra utility or up the DPS they can personally do.

If they increase WHM's healing power to above ASTs right now what does this accomplish? The meta won't change because WHM still cannot do as much DPS as AST unless WHM ends up SO overpowered at healing that groups no longer need two healers. If that is your goal then we might as well just delete SCH and AST and only have one healer job: White Mage.

So please as a WHM main as well as AST. Argue the real issue of no WHM utility. Not nitpick regens trying to claim one is sooo much better than the other when that isn't even true or the problem.

WHM is not doing that badly, in fact the healer comp I would want is WHM/AST instead of AST/AST or AST/SCH. Why? Because WHM does the highest damage for a healer. Now imagine them with the Balance buff on them. Then they do massive damage (for a healer) making WHM utility come in through their damage output, healing output, and ability to save people from mistakes.

The problem healer right now, the one that needs the most help, is SCH. Nerfing AST wont help SCH when people would still bring AST over SCH unless you nerfed AST to the point they are basically do not offer anything of value. So just buff SCH up to be consistently comparable in value to the others.

Also the only way to truly make AST OP would be to give them the ability to draw the card they want every time. Where if I hit draw I pull all 6 cards and can choose which cards I want to spread and royal road.

I think that if you buff SCH to any meaningful degree, WHM loses their seat at the raid table once again. The question in progression raiding is ALWAYS going to be "what healer do we want to bring with our AST?" when Balance is as strong as it is and the job doesn't suffer significantly in other areas.

Remember, aside from Assize, every second a WHM is DPSing is one they're not healing. (Don't be pedantic, I'm aware regens exist, but AST has those too and they're fairly similar in strength.) AOE Balance doesn't have that limitation. If Omega Savage has high periods of frequent single-target or AOE damage then WHM's superior personal DPS drops off quite a bit in value because they have to spend GCDs to heal rather than DPS, whereas Balance only sees reduction re: the AST's DPS loss. Every other non-healer player will be continuing to benefit from that effect no matter WHAT the healer is busy doing in the raid.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

Then what do you suggest? There's already a WHM and a SCH. Should AST then not be a healer and more of a supportive role?
I don't see the problem being a bit of both.

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AST has COPIES of other healer's basic tools, but better in multiple cases, AND brings buffs to the party neither healer competes with at all. If you don't see a problem, you might be blind. This is ironically the problem they wanted to avoid when AST came out in 3.0 which is why AST potencies were lower across the board back then.

A simple suggestion would be make it so at least SCHs are better in the shielding role they are stuck in than the healer that can shift in and out of that role on a whim out of combat, or completely change AST's healing kit to something a bit more original than 'I have your spells, but better in x, y, and z ways'

Right now, SCH has an identity crisis outside of its OGCD healing in actual practice (while being inferior in almost every other category), and a major part of why they still have relevance is the fact AST cards don't stack, and SCH at least helps group dps more than a WHM. If AST cards DID stack, well they may as well be the only healing job in the game at that point, and it's sad that technicality is the only thing stopping that. The combo is still very workable with communication of who has what cards and when since the new job specific UI elements ironically makes it harder to coordinate that without talking.

While they're at it, WHM may need some sort of party dps buff, because they've been facing the problem of being benched for years because their AOE, and powerhealing tends to be overkill outside of the odd solo-healer strats for something on farm.

Oddly enough, if they were to revert all of the heal potency buffs they gave AST since 3.0, but kept the mechanic changes they gave to the card system, lightspeed, etc the same, AST would still be a preferred healer to choose over WHM because of AOE 10% balance, and enough healing.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I'm referring to their 3.0 versions - Synastry was basically the same as it is now in Stormblood (no healing % buff), and Lightspeed during 3.0 also reduced your HEALING magic potency during its effect, not just DPS. Both moves received hefty buffs in 3.2.

My overarching point was more that I hate seeing people use the term "crappy AST healing" in regards to its launch status without providing any context whatsoever. AST's problem wasn't just "weak heals" - those were actually only 5% lower in the highest case than their WHM/SCH counterparts - it was crappy cooldowns and less control over procuring AOE Balance that made it shunned for Gordias. The devs didn't seem to understand the problem, so they just buffed all those aspects, and now AST is the problematic powerhouse it is today.

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Exactly. Back then:

Balance was 10%
Shuffle could give you the same card again.
Shuffle had at least a minute long CD, if not, longer.
Spread had at least a 90 second CD, if not, longer.
Some cards had a shorter duration than they do now.

(yes, yes, i know its been renamed 'redraw'. I call it shuffle out of habit from when I suffered through playing 3.0 AST before I thankfully dropped it before burning tomes on their AF in gordias)

Back then, SCH's Selene was actually better at buffering the party dps on a consistent basis than the ASTs card system which was why I dropped AST early in 3.0 and went back to SCH. I'm not joking, or exaggerating when I say Selene was better at buffing the party damage than ASTs. That is why ASTs got benched.

For a time, it was weaker healing, and a terribly inconsistent buffing system that a damn fairy could outdo that didn't make up for it.
Now it's stronger in both categories at the same time.
It should be one or the other.

If AST's card system was as good as it is now back in Gordias with lower healing potencies, I would put money on WHM warming the bench.

So no, AST healing potencies don't need to be as high as they are relative to the other healers. Their card system is just that strong now. WHM needs to bring something more to the table.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I think that if you buff SCH to any meaningful degree, WHM loses their seat at the raid table once again. The question in progression raiding is ALWAYS going to be "what healer do we want to bring with our AST?" when Balance is as strong as it is and the job doesn't suffer significantly in other areas.

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And if you were to nerf balance and buff SCH to where it should be then the problem becomes "Why should we bring AST?" Which isn't that one of the reasons why they buffed it to begin with?

They would basically have to rework ASTs card system in order to make the cards desirable, either that or just straight buff AST healing and DPS to make them desirable and boot WHM and SCH out of their spots in the process.