Pros and Cons of each Healer Role

And yet, I'm sure that mana is a real problem for whm to dps. And yes, the fact that sch dps mainly depends on dots offers a better chance to maintain dps even when switching off cleric stance. ( and also that because of the fairy and the dmg reduction, we can help AND keeping dp, what whm cannot do.)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

You should probably define what you consider are "proper" variables to measure this then, since you seem to have issue with how everyone else is defining "sustained DPS".

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For clarity:
If a SCH and WHM were both in identical scenarios and SCH left with a higher average, it had more sustained DPS for that scenario.
^ many things could have contrributed to that result:
* length of fight caused MP issue for WHM
* WHM mobility caused issues
* SCH flexibility improved it's dps.
* etc

However, in a generic comparison there is not a specific scenario, which is where the problem lies. No one can set a specific value for these things because they will change depending on the content / party / RNG / etc. While it is appropriate to mention these factors and the job's susceptibility to them so that players may come to a conclusion for their use case, it's not appropriate to assign that use case yourself and change other metrics based on those arbitrarily assigned figures.

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With that being said, you're technically right in your definition of "sustained DPS" but to be perfectly frank, I'm pretty certain most people reading this are getting very annoyed at your rigid and literal interpretation of the term too.

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You're assuming quite a bit here, and in your next statement as well. I had assumed you were just one of those people who needed to get the last word, so I didn't reply to your last response. I'm not certain what you're expecting to achieve. You're continuing our discussion by telling me I'm right for a second time, but now challenge how my posts makes you feel? You have no obligation to read my posts and I let you have the last word, so there should be any 'rebuttal' motivation. If you are feeling annoyed and not finding the discussion interesting you should have a discussion with someone else. I wont take it personally. Otherwise, I'm down the more ffxiv discussions about the differences between healers!

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Most healers understand the difference DPS kits each healer can bring and realize which kit is more optimal for which situation.

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This does not apply to this thread. This thread was started because another player wanted to know the differences

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

That is the point, no? That a WHM has worse sustained DPS due to MP constraints?

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No. I was pointing out that by your definition, factoring MP into the equation would not be considered 'sustained dps', as 0MP is an interruption.

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Originally Posted by winsock

No. I was pointing out that by your definition, factoring MP into the equation would not be considered 'sustained dps', as 0MP is an interruption.

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Well, since you like to be so literal in certain points: Running out of MP would be a limitation, rather than interruption. Imagine it being a car. A red light would be an interruption: You gotta stop for a bit and you can pick up your speed again. Run out of gas and your relative speed drops to nothing.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, since you like to be so literal in certain points: Running out of MP would be a limitation, rather than interruption. Imagine it being a car. A red light would be an interruption: You gotta stop for a bit and you can pick up your speed again. Run out of gas and your relative speed drops to nothing.

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While MP is a limitation, in order to make the point you\\'re trying to make you need to prove that 0MP does not fit the definition of interruption.

I did a quick Google search for you to get a definition:
"the action of interrupting or being interrupted"

That definition is pretty unrevealing... So defining "interrupt" from a Google search:
"stop the continuous progress of (an activity or process)"

There is not a time constraint. In your car example, running out of gas is also an interruption.

I might mention as well that MP regenerates naturally, so if the time component matters to you it would also fit the description of being "constantly interrupted" for a time.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

You forgot to include that WHM have the most AoE healing spells of the three (Assize, Asylum, Medica, Medica II, Cure III) as well as Stoneskin II. And buffs from cards can be seen as a positive as well as a negative because... You forgot to mention the RNG aspect of the Astro.

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I did say it has most HoTs, making it easier to party heal with it than a Diurnal Sect Astro. I've listed the relevant skills and said most HoTs instead of saying "Most AoE Heals" because usage of these skills can vary. I for one do not use my Assize to heal the party, i use it for Burst DPS. I dont see stoneskin II as much of a benefit cos it can only be used outside of combat but I guess that counts. I dont see how cards can be negative at any point. Its not something you should heavily rely on so having that something extra is always a plus for me regardless of RNG.

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Originally Posted by Fricca

I did say it has most HoTs, making it easier to party heal with it than a Diurnal Sect Astro. I've listed the relevant skills and said most HoTs instead of saying "Most AoE Heals" because usage of these skills can vary. I for one do not use myAssize to heal the party, i use it for Burst DPS. I dont see stoneskin II as much of a benefit cos it can only be used outside of combat but I guess that counts. I dont see how cards can be negative at any point. Its not something you should heavily rely on so having that something extra is always a plus for me regardless of RNG.

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Don't WHM and AST have the same amount of HoTs? Am I remembering it wrong? WHM: Regen, Medica II and Asylum. AST: Aspected Benefic, Aspected Helios, Collective Unconscious.

For the thread topic:

I find the toolkits of WHM and Diurnal AST quite similar in power, healing-wise. Asylum vs Collective Unconscious, Assize vs Lightspeed + Celestial Opposition (AH/CU/LA), Essential Dignity vs Tetragrammaton, Synastry vs Divine Seal, Presence of Mind vs Time Dilation (buys you time to either dps or heal more). On top of these WHM has Benediction, Cure III and higher dps, and AST has cards and 2 DoTs that can't miss.

The lack of Benediction/Cure III equivalents makes AST a bit more challenging to heal with in tough situations. On the other hand the generous MP from Luminiferous Aether (3 ticks longer than Shroud of Saints without even being extended) and potential MP cards as well as the MP saved with cheaper AoE dps makes AST less challenging than WHM in long fights.

I agree with everything you said, thus I only pointed out the lack of of Benediction, Cure III, and Assize and DoTs dpswise.

Whm has stronger cure potency, and longer, HoTs.
Regen: HoT for 150 potency, 21 secs vs Aspected Benefic: Instant heals for 190 potency plus HoT for 140 potency, 18 secs. And so on.

As a small FYI, Diurnal Aspected Benefic gives more potency in a shorter duration.

Diurnal Aspected Benefic = 1,030 potency in 18 seconds ( 57.22 potency / second )
Regen = 1,050 potency in 21 seconds ( 50 potency / second )

Alternatively, If you're looking for an equal duration comparison:

Diurnal Aspected Benefic = 1,030 potency in 18 seconds
Regen = 900 potency in 18 seconds

Regen gives you both the higher MP efficiency and higher potency / GCD where as Diurnal Aspected Benefic gives you a higher healing amount in the same duration (assuming 100% uptime on both Regen and Aspected Benefic)

I leave it up to each individual player to determine which one they like better since they both have their pros and cons.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

As a small FYI, Diurnal Aspected Benefic gives more potency in a shorter duration.


I leave it up to each individual player to determine which one they like better since they both have their pros and cons.

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I'd argue that A.Bene is the more powerful tool in more situations. 1050 vs 1030 is a difference of just under 2%, which I think is fair to call pretty negligible. In other words when both the HoTs have run out your their entire course 21 seconds later the difference between the two amounts of healing done is too small to be of any real use in shaking out their practical contributions. The same number of GCDs has been used so that's also a wash. So where the difference between the two really comes in is the value of spreading out the heal longer to an additional tick vs the value of front loading healing and getting it done sooner. I'd argue there are relatively few situations possible where an additional tick is going to make or break things with the overall healing contribution is so similar. However there are at least a handful of situations where a small instant heal really is going to make a big difference.

A.Bene really gives up a marginal amount of total healing for greater hps, frontloading & no CD instant component. For those reasons I'd say that it really is just the flat out better between the two. That said they're part of larger kits.