Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

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Originally Posted by Canadane

If you're having enmity issues, perhaps you should be the OT and let the warrior MT.

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Careful, you'll hurt someone's pride with lines like that! Less DPS for everyone!

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

By your logic, yes it should hold true, but in raid/trial encounters, path should only be used when needed, not because the MT can't keep hate.

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Every 20 seconds it's needed unless it's a burn phase.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

If you're having enmity issues, perhaps you should be the OT and let the warrior MT.

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Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

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That's exactly the point though. If you DO want to maximize DPS, you have the Warrior MT, and the other tank go OT. THAT is actually maximizing group DPS. A paladin or Dark Knight MT isn't maximum DPS, it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

This is of course assuming that we're talking DPS stance main tanking. Last I remember, DRK beats out Warrior MT DPS in any situation wherein 100% tank stance up time is required, but only then, last I'd heard.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

WAR on the other hand, while having access to unchained every 2 mins, still loses at least 800 potency if you count an average of 4 fell cleaves per min. also you won't use inner beast asap considering it's a defence tool and unchained needs wrath stacks aswell.

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These numbers only hold true if you need to stay in tank stance for the entirety of the fight, which only happens when your first concern is 'survivbility and progressing through an encounter'. Typically, DPS only starts entering the equation once the group has already hit enrage, which is the point at which tanks start fine tuning their usage of cooldowns to minimize or even potentially eradicate tank stance up time. During this stage of an encounter, with 100% tank stance uptime, DRK DPS beats out Warrior's due to the mentioned points.

Once it gets down to actually farming the instance, though, Warrior MT DPS beats out everyone else by a rather wide margin. (I believe stated numbers were DRK 8% behind Warrior's total MT DPS?) This happens because a Warrior can much more easily push both hate and DPS then either other tank, rendering it a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

stuff

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MT DRK doesn't change it's rotation at all, except that you don't have blood weapon (until you end up dropping grit) but gain reprisal and low blow procs in exchange.

WAR on the other hand, while having access to unchained every 2 mins, still loses at least 800 potency if you count an average of 4 fell cleaves per min. also you won't use inner beast asap considering it's a defence tool and unchained needs wrath stacks aswell.

so I really doubt that MT WAR, OT DRK will do more damage than the other way around.
MT WAR, OT PLD is definitely a gain though (for now)

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If you DO want to maximize DPS, you have the Warrior MT, and the other tank go OT. THAT is actually maximizing group DPS. A paladin or Dark Knight MT isn't maximum DPS, it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

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Flatly incorrect.

DRK deals more damage as a main tank than as an off-tank, because a main tank DRK deals all the damage of an off-tank DRK, plus whatever extra damage you get out of Reprisal and Blood Price.
WAR deals more damage as an off-tank than as a main-tank, because as an off-tank they need to replace zero Fell Cleaves with Inner Beasts, and as an off-tank they can reserve Vengeance, Raw Intuition, and Infuriate purely as Abandon-generators without needing to save them for mitigation.

If A > B and C > D, then there is no way that B + D > A + C, regardless of whether or not D > A.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Flatly incorrect.

DRK deals more damage as a main tank than as an off-tank, because a main tank DRK deals all the damage of an off-tank DRK, plus whatever extra damage you get out of Reprisal and Blood Price.
WAR deals more damage as an off-tank than as a main-tank, because as an off-tank they need to replace zero Fell Cleaves with Inner Beasts, and as an off-tank they can reserve Vengeance, Raw Intuition, and Infuriate purely as Abandon-generators without needing to save them for mitigation.

If A > B and C > D, then there is no way that B + D > A + C, regardless of whether or not D > A.

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This exactly. A MT DRK ideally would not have to use grit and through the use of a ninja this would be possible.

A MT DRK in this scenario loses nothing and gains extra Dark Arts, Reprisals, and Low Blows.

A warrior would still be doing their maximum DPS and probably more.

However, As soon as the DRK has to fight the warrior for aggro it is more DPS for the WAR to tank.Of course these are ideal scenarios and the maximum group DPS you can achieve is highly dependent on a bunch of different factors that im too lazy to lay out and it really isnt the point of this thread.

If we want to talk optimal min/max, you have the WAR pull with NIN Shade Walker + early 3x FC (pre-Infuriate + RI @ 1s etc) so that Vengeance ticks hit the boss and WAR is in Deliverance asap.

Even more min/max, you just use 2 WARs.

Regardless, though, in a DRK/WAR comp you'd end up with more group DPS if you let the DRK take over after Berserk fades.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

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Wasn't SwO pld able to outdps war w/o Defiance as mt pre-heavensward?

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Wasn't SwO pld able to outdps war w/o Defiance as mt pre-heavensward?

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Yeah, things have changed immensely though. They could've possibly brought this back if they scaled up Shield Swipe attack power instead of putting it oGCD, but oh well, hopefully the fixes in 3.2 will be good.