The Illusion of Choice

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Borderlands and destiny mmo? That's like saying warfare is mmo. So no.
The problem with ''choice'' you mentioned, the weapons. One of the weapons will always be better. Weapon dmg> If you lets say have ilvl 220 but raid weapon is ilvl 230 and you obtain it, you rather use that, because weapon dmg> all. That's not a choice, that's something you want/have to use.

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Interesting. Because I'm pretty sure I said it has elements that are present in mmos, not that it is a true mmo. Diablo and Borderlands all have lobbies, bank systems, raiding, trading, pvp and character builds. These are Elena that generally are found in mmos like this one we play.

As for your example using this game I roll BRD and I have the 210 relic pants and the 200 Void Ark pants, but guess which one I use, the Void Ark pants. Why? Because it has crit rate and the relic pants have a ridiculous unnecessary amount of accuracy. So for me I take the crit rate, simply because something appears to be better doesn't mean it is.

Let me explain that, just because a weapon maybe better because it has high damage doesn't mean it works in every situation, if you actual played Diablo or Borderlands in depth, you'd understand that. In those games enemies have resistances to elements and overall damage, just because you have a gun that does 500 base damage doesn't mean you'll be doing more damage. The enemy might have a weakness to poison that grants 100 extra damage, so using that poison weapon that has 250 base damage and 150 poison on this said enemy with a poison damage debuff of 100 would total out your overall damage to 550 instead of just 500 using that weapon with 500 base damage.

This game doesn't offer anything like that but gives up the option to build on our stats to a very small portion by mixing and matching gear sets. Which is where the choice of the player comes into light, you can roll a full raid set or a full relic set and that's completely fine, but you also have the choice to use all the gear out of each gear table to customize your stats. Which is what end game players have done since T5.

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Originally Posted by Pence

Maybe you're in the wrong genre? Because regardless of what anyone does it'll ALWAYS come down to 1 build.

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Not exactly. Even in the current state of the game we see this proven wrong. There IS a best raid/group comp, yet it's far from true that everyone only abides by the one. I'm kind of just reiterating what OP said, but that's a very legitimate thing to take away from the conversation.

Also, there's definitely a couple MMO's that have implemented multiple builds and maintained some semblance of balance, without "Illusion of choice". It's all about how much the developer puts into it.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Even in the current state of the game we see this proven wrong. There IS a best raid/group comp, yet it's far from true that everyone only abides by the one.

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There is also a best rotation/playstyle which far from everyone abides to - much to the dismay of many people. I would not at all be surprised however if even our lovely ice mages had friends that take them into group content, regardless of how suboptimal their setup or play is.

I find that argument fairly weak, because it leads to the conclusion that our playstyle already is very much customizable, you only need to find people to endure your suboptimal decisions.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

There is also a best rotation/playstyle which far from everyone abides to - much to the dismay of many people. I would not at all be surprised however if even our lovely ice mages had friends that take them into group content, regardless of how suboptimal their setup or play is.

I find that argument fairly weak, because it leads to the conclusion that our playstyle already is very much customizable, you only need to find people to endure your suboptimal decisions.

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Yeah, exactly the point. OP said it first, but I definitely agree. Most of the content that's actually difficult is taken on by groups of friends (usually), and either immediately, or after some time, they'll be willing to allow you to play what Job you want to play, even if it is sub-optimal. Most content goes that way, tbh.

Not to mention, gear sets are also a choice where a BiS certainly exists, even though not everyone abides by the BiS. More people do than don't, and it's not a big deal as perhaps a sub-optimal skill build could prove, but still. Food for thought.

The next logical step for XIV is to give level 2 traits, or traits for 50-60 skills. But after that, I'm pretty worried about this strict adherence to no extra customization. Unless, of course, we end up with like 5 jobs per role or something (melee/tank/healer/ranged/mage).

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I find that argument fairly weak, because it leads to the conclusion that our playstyle already is very much customizable, you only need to find people to endure your suboptimal decisions.

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You make it sound like "suboptimal" automatically means "abysmally lower than the optimal setup"

I agree that it's difficult to create severals builds that are exactly on par but I think you can legitimately make them within 10% to each other.

It's like saying that you must endure an i170 character where you could have ended with an i175, in Expert Roulette. Or a PLD instead of a WAR...Not that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Illusion of choice does not mean "Choice where one outcome is generally superior". It doesn't even mean "Choice where one outcome is optimal".

[Example of a talent set where a non-optimal choice is still a completely worthwhile choice because it requires less of the player, making it more easily maximizable/usable.]

That's a completely legitimate option that many players would likely choose to take.

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With this I agree completely, and my earlier writing probably bordered on hyperbole for at least a few classes. I should have taken a moment more to think and specify actual examples.

My issue was more in regards to abilities like Barrage and early-gear Ravager, especially near release, where there were each optimal if meeting even a single condition: whether there are multiple enemies worth killing (though this would at least depend also on their positioning in the case of Barrage), and whether you'd be able to hit for at least half the duration of your lingering ground AoE (early Ravager). (Of course, by now these have been improved in balance.) Alternatively, there are plenty of other talents that provide very close-performing choices that allow for personal decisions. It just seems odd to me when people reference the Wrath to Mist/WoD talent shift as a being done as a solution to clear-cut specs when some of the new talent trees were just as absolute or directly niche/situational (again, especially on release), the only change being that one need not make compromises for varying situations as you can always change spec between fights. Though less obvious, the earlier talent sets did have plenty of 'easier' specs, many of which I ended up outperforming 'optimal' specs with just due to their increased leniency during movement-intensive fights, etc. WoW's been pretty good about creating a sort of range of not only true 'optimal' specs but also allowances for different 'optimal difficulties'. (Admitedly, more so with the WoD style talents.)

I guess it just seems to me that combating or submitting to or dealing with an alleged 'illusion of choice' was never the aim of these changes; on the player end it was best described as taking the fat out of the burger (for better or worse), and on the development end, reducing costs. Further, many of the new talents seem more interested in adding class flavor than actual spec choice. (Not a bad thing; just not consequent to the ideology that people seem to attribute them to.)

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

This game doesn't offer anything like that but gives up the option to build on our stats to a very small portion by mixing and matching gear sets. Which is where the choice of the player comes into light, you can roll a full raid set or a full relic set and that's completely fine, but you also have the choice to use all the gear out of each gear table to customize your stats. Which is what end game players have done since T5.

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Yes it's true what end game players have done since t5, they prefer stats over the ilvl (if it does improve your dps) But when it comes to weapons, no. Never did some one pick up a less weapon dmg weapon over a weapon with less dmg on it and better stats for the class.
This is only gear and I can see and understand why. I do own the VA pants for brd and I do also own the gear from diadem, and its giving me crit and det and acc, so those are better, including the 9 dex is also great. Ive done all raids and honestly never seen some one ever pick up a weapon with less weapon dmg over the other one because it has better stats. This isn't diabolo or borderlands, you cant compare how weapons works here vs the other games. If it did something what borderlands do, then I can see why, but it doesn't. I see your point, but comparing how weapons work in this game vs borderlands isn't something you can do. The gear setup in FF14 is linear, it really is. You slightly have some choices but they aren't that great or big deal to make it unique for each players.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Yes it's true what end game players have done since t5, they prefer stats over the ilvl (if it does improve your dps) But when it comes to weapons, no. Never did some one pick up a less weapon dmg weapon over a weapon with less dmg on it and better stats for the class.

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It's mostly because WD trumps main stats, which, in turn, trump secondary stats.
BUT, we're seeing that now between Thordan weapons and Anima. Having only 5 lvl more doesn't compensate bad itemization.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's mostly because WD trumps main stats, which, in turn, trump secondary stats.
BUT, we're seeing that now between Thordan weapons and Anima. Having only 5 lvl more doesn't compensate bad itemization.

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For BRD and MCH the only difference is the main stats and different secondary stats. Id say thordan gun is better than the relic weapon for MCH. The ilvl 210 is still better than 205, 1 more weapon dmg and some extra stats.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

For BRD and MCH the only difference is the main stats and different secondary stats. Id say thordan gun is better than the relic weapon for MCH. The ilvl 210 is still better than 205, 1 more weapon dmg and some extra stats.

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For PLD, I'm really not sure if "1 WD, 3 STR and 3 Deter" makes up for "49 Crit" between Hauteclaire and Sword Of The Heavens...because who cares about the 51 parry :p