Why people says AST is bad?

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

Yea and if we agree with the complains of the self-proclamed "Dark knights lovers" this job would become the new Op class and the first comer could well-manage it.

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I fail to perceive the correlation between this and the price of tea in Garlemald.

Fake difficulty through noobtrap mechanics does not make the Job shine any brighter.

OK, I decided to jump into this thread since it seemed to replace the old 70 page thread of AST discussions lol.
I am a career healer, WHM in 1.0, SCH in 2.0, and now AST in 3.0. That said I am definitely gonna keep my SCH leveled up to fall back on. I love AST but it is definitely more work to get stuff done and is less equipped to pull a group out of the fire. AST really requires that the party knows what they are doing and avoiding what they can but there is little reward for asking for that kind of skill. WHM or SCH can be in a party and recover from the screw ups. I do agree that AST need some buffs and I get all the arguments about math and cooldowns but wanted to add some stuff.
1st off, and this came up in other threads, ppl talk about SCH skills as tho they have all of them all the time. About 6 Lustrates in a row or using Dissipation for more Aetherflow or how they have Fey Illum for healing buffs and Fey Wind for haste/DPS increase! If you fire off 6 Lustrates then you have no Indom for AoE heals, you have no Sacred Soil. If you Dissipate you have no Fairy Embracing or any of that Fairies skills if you need them. If you want Fey Illum up for healing increase then you don't have Fey Wind. Yes, they are all OPTIONS but if you ever needed those options all at once as your party is probably boned anyway. I get that the math shows Fey Wind is overall better than what an AST brings, I don't doubt it, the cards need serious work, but a SCH might not even have Selene out. I know there are elitists here saying stuff like all good SCHs use Selene anyway then talk abotu Fey Illumination in the same breath. Fact is you will see Eos in alot of content, especially new 8 mans when ppl are learning since she gives a wider margin for error. Which means no Fey Wind.
Again, not saying AST are fine by any means, just trying to refute some of the SCH god-mode talk.

There are also ppl who talk about how much more effort it is for the same effect. If you wanna argue about utility the jobs offer, thats one thing. But as far as effort goes, if a player wants to personally put in more effort for the same effect then that is their prerogative. I find AST fun, I played a ton of SCH in 2.0 and I wanted a change. If I want to sweat my balls off healing on AST and we all live and finish the run then so what? People here talk like we all need to pick a job that gives the best results for the least effort. Granted, I believe putting in more effort should give better results and AST isn't there yet (hopefully they will be) but I am having fun and doing the content fine and will hopefully be ready when AST gets buffed into Flavor of the Month healer lol.

That said, here is a copy/paste of my ideas for card system changes (as I believe the thing that makes us unique is what needs to be changed/fixed, not change everything else to make us a copy of another healer):

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Originally Posted by SmackyHuggins

I agree with this and feel like our potency should be lower than the others in favor of the card system we bring. But that card system needs a review. I have been following this thread for for a bit and have wanted to reply with some ideas I have been knocking around in my head.
If you look at a job with a similar gimmick, such as Corsair in XI, they could pick their buffs, but the RNG aspect was the potency. COR could "roll the dice" after they picked a buff to try and make it better or possibly worse if they busted. Our roll of the dice is simply what buff we get so I feel the reward for the risk of not knowing what you are going to get should be that every card is useful on anyone and our decision is based on the current situation and the only reason to Royal Road or Spread is to try and set up a good combo or anticipate a part of a fight as a bonus, whereas right now we use them to sit on one of the few "good cards".
These are some ideas I had for the card effects and abilities:
-All cards should have the same duration. The fact that 3 have a shorter duration is proof that SE knew they were better or more useful and they felt the need to limit them. If you are going to make us play with RNG then they should all have the same duration, whether the 20secs ones are shortened (not what I would choose lol) or the 15secs ones are lengthened (yes please!).
-DRAW: Alot of ppl are clamoring for reduced cooldown, which I can get behind, but I think an interesting mechanic would be a way to reset the cool down similar to River of Blood for Bard, perhaps a % chance on Crit heal or something?
-BOLE: Earth, Damage reduced by 10%. I think this card is fine as is.
-ARROW: Wind, Attack speed increased by 10%. I think this card is fine as is.
-SPEAR: Ice, Ability Recast reduced by 20%. Currently only works if the ability is used while under the effect of the card. It has been said that it is a bug and that it should shorten recasts already running. If that fix comes through then I believe this card will be fine.
-SPIRE: Lightning, TP cost of weaponskills reduced 20%. This card is the one no one wants and I think that is a problem. The fact that this card just gets RR'd or Shuffled should speak volumes. The TP reduction should be rolled into Ewer as a resource cost reduction card and Spire should get something more in line with its element. I am thinking Crit Rate increase which would include healing crits. This would add a level of strategy to decide to give it to a melee for the DPS, a tank to help with hate (thru increased dmg) or ourselves to boost healing as well as possibly proc the reset on Draw proposed above.
-EWER: Water, MP Cost reduced 20%. This should have TP cost reduction rolled into it making it a blanket resource reduction card. Or possibly MP/TP regeneration as some ppl have proposed. This would again aid in the only useful instance or TP reduction right now which would be mass pulls as it would allow both melee and casters to go all out if is AoE'd as well as a healer to keep ppl up during this by helping everyone's resource on one card.
-BALANCE: Fire, Damage done increased 10%. I think this card should also be a boost to healing done. The card would effectively buff whatever the player's main stat would affect, ie Dmg for melee, magic dmg for a caster, and healing potency for healer. This would allow for a buff useful to anyone but again we must pick our targets for the moment we draw it.
Alot of these changes are also to address some of the missing links in AST arsenal such as a boost to healing done (which, if on a card could be given to another healer in an 8 man) and MP issues.
-SHUFFLE: I know alot of ppl want it eliminate the chance to get the same card again. While I feel that pain I think the very notion of returning a card and shuffling the deck should have the possibility to draw the same card. But I would not be against it lol.
-SPREAD: I know alot of ppl want it usable out of combat. I think this might be a little OP but there are ways to fudge it now (unlike RR a card stays in Spread through zones and entering DF) so they might as well just give it to us lol
-ROYAL ROAD: My only complaint with RR right now is that it is used on the next card so if you have a card in spread with a RR effect you want you stop Drawing effectively eliminating our gimmick. A solution may be to have a way where where we use a card then choose to RR the effect after. An example would be: Draw Arrow, RR, now we have the AoE option, Draw Bole, at this point would could RR Bole for Potency increase or use Bole, if we use Bole RR would flash similar to a combo'd move and we have a short time to decide to apply RR effect to the Bole we just used, if we do the RR effect overwrites the old one (potency increase, duration increase, or AoE with current duration transferred). This would make us think on our toes. If we don't use it within the time frame we maintain the RR effect for next Draw.
-SECTS: I am of the camp to allow us to switch in combat. I believe this would raise the skill ceiling on the job and make us more versatile.

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It doesn't matter if you're the best of the best, AST will still fall behind compared to the other two healers, by a lot more than you seem to think.

It's not a matter of "if you try harder, you'll do just as good as the others." AST is weaker in every way, even when you're super professional. If you're super professional, you'd be contributing far more on the other two healers than on AST. AST also has a higher skill floor than the other two, so if you're not super professional, then it's going to be abysmal.

That's just how it is.

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a SCH might not even have Selene out.

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They will if they're a good Scholar, which is the case you're trying to explain with AST too. If you read around a bit, you'd know that Dissipate is EXTREMELY situational and people never use it.

Your attempt at saying SCH is worse than people think it is, is just false. It is quite good, and far better than AST. With myself having a 60 SCH and 60 AST, I can see it very easily, and the others that have both agree.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

It doesn't matter if you're the best of the best, AST will still fall behind compared to the other two healers, by a lot more than you seem to think.

It's not a matter of "if you try harder, you'll do just as good as the others." AST is weaker in every way, even when you're super professional. If you're super professional, you'd be contributing far more on the other two healers than on AST. AST also has a higher skill floor than the other two, so if you're not super professional, then it's going to be abysmal.

That's just how it is.



They will if they're a good Scholar, which is the case you're trying to explain with AST too. If you read around a bit, you'd know that Dissipate is EXTREMELY situational and people never use it.

Your attempt at saying SCH is worse than people think it is, is just false. It is quite good, and far better than AST. With myself having a 60 SCH and 60 AST, I can see it very easily, and the others that have both agree.

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First off, I am not saying SCH is not as good as ppl say, it is ridiculously good. I love SCH. I am going to keep it leveled along with AST so I have both available. SCH has been my 1st love since ARR launched. What I said is that ppl are spreading misinformation about it. There are posts in AST threads about SCHs having 9 stacks of aetherflow at their disposal for 9 Lustrates in a row when that would never actually happen, you are not gonna dissipate and lose the fairy in a situation where you just burned 6 stacks of AF, hell burning 6 stacks in a row means you are doing terrible. The ppl who say this stuff are just like the ppl who think they will get perfect Draws every time on AST and that is the norm that should be considered. Ppl are taking a vertical slice of SCH under extremely ideal conditions and saying it is something that is possible all the time in any fight but then trashing on ppl who talk that way about the cards. The cards suck and need alot of work, but they can't do the same thing to make their argument. Ppl in this thread have flat out mentioned Fey Wind and Fey Illum in the same breath as tho they are always available. If Selene is the end all be all, then you don't get Illumination. If you use Illumination then wasted Swiftcast to get selene out you have a 2 min cooldown on Fey Wind, they are tied together. There is no magic way to 'stance dance' between the fairies and get everything. And trust me, plenty of ppl will be using Eos when the new raids come out for the margin for error as they learn them.
I played SCH at 50 for 2 years, I will be the 1st to say SCH is better than AST. You are trying to make points that I already know. I flat out said they are more work for less reward and that it is a problem. The 'gimmick' of AST needs a serious balance, you should be able to be a viable choice for any content when right now ppl would take WHM or SCH over them. I play my heart out on AST just to keep ppl alive where I can let my fairy take the wheel and DPS on SCH. AST relies way too much on the party being perfect with few ways to save a run if it hits the fan. I think the ability of a healer to really save the day when shit goes wrong is something to look for and AST is seriously lacking there. I don't believe this is tied to lower potency or even their abilities (tho some do really suck) It is about the one thing that was supposed to make us different, the card system, but different didn't mean better or even equal. AST should be a max effort, max reward job. Instead it is a max effort sub par reward job. The skill of the job should be quickly identifying situations and how to use cards, they should be more useful for everyone as I stated above. Right now it is about hoping you don't get Spire 9 times in a row and spam curing.

The real key to everything is that AST's buffs just need to be stronger, and maybe change how some of them work in general to truly be useful.

I say this because the RNG involved means you are extremely UNlikely to get the buffs you want, when you want them, so when you DO get them, that buff should so something IN-SANELY useful. Right now, they provide slight DPS padding at best and can be completely useless at worst.

And here's a crazy idea: how about the AST's emergency buttons COME from the cards? Considering the current emergency buttons are so bad, if AST could provide raid-saving buffs through the cards, then the RNG AND lack of emergency buttons would suddenly make sense.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that the AST buffs should FEEL overpowered because there was only a 17% chance that they'd get the buff the wanted at the right time.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I'm not exaggerating when I say that the AST buffs should FEEL overpowered because there was only a 17% chance that they'd get the buff the wanted at the right time.

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I'm with you there. The card buffs either need to be borderline brokenly powerful or reworked so that each card provides a some significant benefit that is applicable to most situations.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I'm with you there. The card buffs either need to be borderline brokenly powerful or reworked so that each card provides a some significant benefit that is applicable to most situations.

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Would anyone be okay with us being "the bard of healers" if that's the case? I can't imagine any other way of making the cards enticing.

I just think the phrase "...Then the AST drew a ______ and saved us from a wipe." needs to be a sentence which could actually feasibly be said by someone.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I just think the phrase "...Then the AST drew a ______ and saved us from a wipe." needs to be a sentence which could actually feasibly be said by someone.

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Someday... maybe

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I just think the phrase "...Then the AST drew a ______ and saved us from a wipe." needs to be a sentence which could actually feasibly be said by someone.

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In this reality, for every person that said that phrase, there'll be 100 that said "If only the AST drew a _____, he/she could have saved us from a wipe" :D.