Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

I have to admit...I don't know what DR in your reference means either. First thing that pops up when I see DR is Daily Roulette...too many words using same acronyms...T.T

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by B0YRaNmA

I have to admit...I don't know what DR in your reference means either. First thing that pops up when I see DR is Daily Roulette...too many words using same acronyms...T.T

---

I'm guessing they're referring to "diminishing returns"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moonfish

I'm guessing they're referring to "diminishing returns"

---

Yar...I mean at first, after reading the post about DR. Thank you though for trying to clarify that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeekendSoja

english lessons

---

And of course you assume, that everyone who plays this game has english as their native language.

P.S. нихуя

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raela

Yeah uh.. that just makes you all look like awful people and I am 100% glad I was not there. Why post that here????

---

It actually makes them look like really friendly people... most of the roulettes are boring while they had some fun together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

It actually makes them look like really friendly people... most of the roulettes are boring while they had some fun together.

---

I feel very bad about the fun my party had yesterday, I mean, we dared to have the wrong opinions AND had fun while discussing them? I feel so ashamed... ;^)
Nice post, I'm being serious here.

I've run Wiping Shitty twice today, as SCH. Combined, those two runs took over 3 hours of my day.

Both times, I've landed with other SCHs as my co-healer, who were either new to the dungeon or truly sucked ass at playing this job. And at healing in general. Concepts as simple as using Selene for AoE cleansing, or indeed, cleansing debuffs at all seemed to be entirely foreign to them.

But let's not even talk about the first run, which took over an hour. No, instead, let's reminisce about the second run, which ended with less than 20 minutes left on the clock.

I have never had to raise a co-healer this many times, at Arachne Eve. I had to solo-heal a tank who repeatedly pointed Dahak's tail at the rest of the raid, even after being specifically told not to, and who wouldn't look away from Mortal Ray. I had to find out, in the middle of fighting Forgall, that the co-healer was new and did not know anything at all about the mechanics. We only got past Forgall because of the SMNs who just went into an utterly unbelievable chain of ressing.

Ozma was not fun. I'm sure it doesn't need to be said. I had to explain mechanics while on the run. Before we finally booted him, the tank failed to pick up adds in the Doomsday phase, twice, killing me. After specifically being told again and again that I would eat the orbs, this SCH runs straight into another orb while I'm healing myself from eating the last orb, causing it to explode and kill us both. Which lead to another wipe.

We spent almost a full hour just trying to clear Ozma. We only managed it after every last member of my alliance, except for me, was replaced. And even then, this new co-healer, also a SCH, refused to help me cleanse bleed off at any point, no matter how much I asked them to. I had to raise them a bunch of times, too!

And even after all this, I didn't get my healer jacket. It didn't even drop. I didn't even manage to get the Calofisteri minion. Just... just, WHY?

Deep Dungeon. 2 groups.

First is me (WHM), a PLD, and two DPS. Floor 30.
Seems great!

First room, bronze chest. Tank and 1 DPS ignore it and move to the next room. The other DPS opens the chest.
Mimic.
DPS dies, I die, tank and other DPS run back, both die.
Duty Failed.

Second group:
The same PLD, me, two Monks.
Floor 30. PLD runs into the first room. Attacks the first mob. Another mob spawns behind her. It aggros the tank. Tank runs away and pulls a 3rd mob by accident.
But the tank doesn't hold any hate on those mobs. They attack DPS. DPS die, tank dies, I die.
Duty Failed.

However, after that I went to Aquapolis with 6 FC members, and we had 20 doors open IN A ROW!

I never leave a chest behind in Deep Dungeon. Unless we're on floor x9 and we really don't need eny more poms. The bronze chests I never ignore because 1- useful potions that save the day 2- potsherds. Low drop rate on sherds I know but the potions are such a blessing when you have a party with no healing abilities. Also, I never leave someone alone to open a chest in case there's a mimic. Since I play on ps4 and chatting without kb is very inconvenient inside the Palace, I made a macro for party chat just for when a mimic pops so my party comes to the rescue. But yeah, people, never ignore bronze chests!

Yeah, so many people don't even know that potsherds drop from bronze chests.. :/
Also, if I have a wipe-happy party (and often no healer around) getting to refill the single allowed phoenix down is a blessing you can only get from bronze chests as well.

As for potions, you can bring them in from outside though, and BECAUSE PotD gives them out in crazy amounts just about any potion costs 1-2 Gil in HQ on the MB^^
But yeah, silver and bronze chests - always open, if anything, I leave gold chests behind.

Now, not trying to be rude, but how did you as a healer die to a single mimic / have the entire party die to 3 mobs even IF aggro was all over the place?
Both are things that you can usually heal through, especially on lower floors where monsters don't have nasty extra skills yet ._.
Sincerely wondering, not trying to insult you or anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atoli

Now, not trying to be rude, but how did you as a healer die to a single mimic / have the entire party die to 3 mobs even IF aggro was all over the place?
Both are things that you can usually heal through, especially on lower floors where monsters don't have nasty extra skills yet ._.
Sincerely wondering, not trying to insult you or anything.

---

I've been there. Was my fastest trip into PotD too, lasting under a minute. I think I was on floor 21 at the time though.

Party was Lv.32.
Mimic was Lv.42. I got et in two hits.

Had ran into Sor Khai with a BLM that still had accessories as low as i120

Be must have just barely fit the requirement. One of the rings was for level 52. I mean what?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

I never leave a chest behind in Deep Dungeon. Unless we're on floor x9 and we really don't need eny more poms. The bronze chests I never ignore because 1- useful potions that save the day 2- potsherds. Low drop rate on sherds I know but the potions are such a blessing when you have a party with no healing abilities. Also, I never leave someone alone to open a chest in case there's a mimic. Since I play on ps4 and chatting without kb is very inconvenient inside the Palace, I made a macro for party chat just for when a mimic pops so my party comes to the rescue. But yeah, people, never ignore bronze chests!

---

You should get yourself a wireless keyboard. I bought a Logitech keyboard for like 30 bucks when FFXIV launched, and it's still going strong.

I have only got potsherd from mob dropped chest, do static chests give them too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atoli

Now, not trying to be rude, but how did you as a healer die to a single mimic / have the entire party die to 3 mobs even IF aggro was all over the place?
Both are things that you can usually heal through, especially on lower floors where monsters don't have nasty extra skills yet ._.
Sincerely wondering, not trying to insult you or anything.

---

I've had mimics that are six to eight levels above me and the rest of my party, so they can hit extremely hard, and a healer may not be able to heal themselves through it if it can't be killed quickly enough.

On WHM got anti tower today with 2 of the worst bards I have seen in a while both were under 400 dps luckily me and the tank pulled the slack so the dungeon didn't take that long and 1 of them decided to make a comment about me being low on mp because I had to fully dps to kill things at a decent rate but neither would play mages ballad or foe's even when asked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas

You should get yourself a wireless keyboard. I bought a Logitech keyboard for like 30 bucks when FFXIV launched, and it's still going strong.

---

I have actually, but it's a ps3 wireless kb. On ps4 I have to switch it on, wich takes a few seconds to achieve, and then either switch it off again through the devices menu or let it time out after 30 mins which consumes battery life for nothing. In the case if a mimic pop things just happen so fast that by the time I switched on the kb or type with the virtual one, I am already dead. And I'm not exagerating, it has happened, I died and didn't even finish typing "/p mimic [help me out!]". The macro works beautifully though :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I have only got potsherd from mob dropped chest, do static chests give them too?

---

Yes. /10char

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by synesthetic

Party was Lv.32.
Mimic was Lv.42. I got et in two hits.

---

This is exactly what happened.

You die in two hits from the mimic on the 30th floor.

Also, mobs that doe AoE (the turtles), will kill a DPS in 1 hit OR become very very close.
It is especially this case when people rush through DD without raising their level.

If I recall correctly in this instance, the tank originally pulled a turtle, was then attacked by another mob, and ran away to escape from it which resulted in pulling another mob. The DPS tried to attack the other mobs, but the tank had no hate on them because it was a body pull.

While DPS are focusing on two extra mobs, the turtle does AoE attack. Boom, both DPS dead. Nothing I can do about that when the DPS is also being attacked by other mobs.
Then, when tank is just focusing on turtle, both other mobs come to me. If I heal myself, the tank will die. If I heal the tank, I will die. If I attack, we will both die.

And it's the first floor (30th floor), so there are no items to use...


EDIT: Today's story:
Hullbreak Isle HM

AST is healer. At final boss, I get "Grenado Shot" 3 times. The first time, I expect AST to remove heavy debuff. (AST do have some ability to remove debuffs, right?)
But they don't. Almost died because they didn't heal after the poison either.

2nd time I get heavied, I use Shukuchi to escape (Ninja's instant teleportation ability).

The 3rd time (yes, the other DPS was doing very low damage...), the AST STILL does not debuff it, and I take the damage.

I kind of wanted to put the AoE near the AST make him do something, but I didn't...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FinaSel

AST do have some ability to remove debuffs, right?

---

Yes, level 18 skill. You'd think they'd know about it at 60 ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by synesthetic

Party was Lv.32.
Mimic was Lv.42. I got et in two hits.

---

Thanks for answering :)
I've had mimics hit harder and not so hard but never actually paid attention to their level.


On the topic of PotD:
Such a lovely run today. Floor 11-20. Party was PLD, DRG, MCH and me (MNK).
MCH: don't forget to use potions :) we don't have heals it seems :)
*party progresses through a few floors, DRG tends to run off by herself*
*DRG has a slime blow up in her face and dies while she is alone*
DRG: damn slime
DRG: just use the return don't waste phoenix
*we arrive at her and kinda just stand there for a sec (I thought maybe the PLD had raise, but seemingly nope)*
*MCH uses phoenix down on her*
DRG: ...
*we go over to the light to get to the next floor but DRG doesn't enter the light*
Me: we still have 3, don't make such a big deal out of it^^
DRG: ...
DRG: that's also what I don't understand with people
MCH: you mean like you running off on your own? :)
DRG: No, wasting something You can only get here, while You have TWO free ways to revive
Me: "you can only get here"? phoenix downs are like 3 gil on the MB..
DRG: I already soloed this floor, so I can do what I want, A slime exploded, I admit it was a mistake avoidable
MCH: wow ... /slowclap
MCH: just a game man, don't have to act like an elitist jerk
Me: can someone explain to me why this is such a big deal? .-.
DRG: I'm annoyed with peole not using their heads
*we go on and get one phoenix down after another from bronze chests, way more than we could hold*
MCH: and got a phoenix again ;)

*after a while, we finally get to the final boss*
*I have the worst luck and just have one giant long lag and by the time stuff is moving again on my screen, I'm dead*
Me: well yeah this was the worst time to get laggy..xD
DRG: btw, this is the time where You use Phoenix
Me: lol, NameOfTheDRG
*while I'm still typing, DRG leaves the instance*
Me: ...you can't even use pheonix down during the fight @_@ does she not know that?
MCH: :D

For some reason I had some terrible lag today. Worst I've had since switching to Sudden Link.

Anyway, I que for Expert (get Sohr Khai) as BRD just for the Eso. Run went great, good damage, but for some reason I died near the end on the first boss to a cleave. I never once died to this boss till now. I didn't think I was in cleave range and the boss wasn't exactly straight. Most of the run, I didn't lag much, till last boss.

I lagged throughout pretty much during the entire fight. My attacks, I'm pretty sure were not going though. I felt like I wasn't contributing to the damage. And then I ended up dying when a pillar was destroyed. That is also the first that has happened to me. I felt so bad. :( I even took the BRD chest piece that dropped. Anyway, good job guys for pretty much 3 manning the boss! So sorry for the lag! ;_;

Another duty finder tale of mine, I queued for mentor roulette, got join-in-progress into A5 as a scholar. Some of them are new but we proceeded with me doing the gorilla job.. Things went smooth until the DPS and co-heal WHM kept dying due getting caught in the bomb blast, up until around 40% only me and the tanks were alive, and the tank died due to incoming damage and me needed to punch that bomb away. The OT took over and i used Heal LB 3 to revive the party, DRG returned back to entrance thinking it was a wipe, so we were only 7 for the rest of the fight. Things got hectic after they got revived, like DPS dropped the poison on the boss and players started to die one after the other. Then I died around 15% when the boss casted boost and one of the player already stood on the center before the boss casted "Boost" I didnt change to bird in time because i was healing the tank. WHM raised me and died not long after that..

Also.. I am kinda curious in what's that red debuff that appears during the puddle? Goblixer something.. I got it as high as 10 stacks and it really tingling my scalp throughout the fight..

http://imgur.com/bqEuzOk.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Also.. I am kinda curious in what's that red debuff that appears during the puddle? Goblixer something.. I got it as high as 10 stacks and it really tingling my scalp throughout the fight..]

---

The Goblixer debuff itself does nothing. But if you let it fall off (don't step in puddles for too long) you will get a massive DoT with a side of Heavy. Also, in Savage, (not sure if applies to normal too) the more stacks you have the shorter their duration. Apparently bad things also happen if you get 12 stacks, but I've never seen anyone reach that many stacks, nor any evidence of such happening, and I have no idea what it would do. Probably the same as it falling off.

Lately, every time I queue into main scenario roulette as a PLD, I end up with a party full of idiots who insist on being as stupid and irritating as possible. And I wind up snapping, acting like the usual jerk tank, because these healers and DPS just keep doing shit like:

- Pulling bosses before I can.
- Pulling mobs before I can.
- Pulling mobs that don't even need to be pulled at all.
- Running Livia around in circles despite being told repeatedly how the fight is supposed to go.
- Refusing to use the cannons for whatever asnine reason.

And then blaming the tanks whenever we can't control the situation that they messed up on purpose. Once again, shit like this is why there are so few tanks, and they're all either jerks or idiots.

Lately I've been getting healers in Wanderers Palace HM who don't fully heal the person who has doom. Most of the time that person is me. I've told multiple healers "If someone has doom on them you have to heal them to full to remove it from them". Do they do that? No they don't. When it ends up them though they heal themselves to full :mad:

PvP : Shatter. 72 man.

3 healers in my group. I am a ninja.
I get summoner and bard dots applied to me before ice spawns and both teams retreat.
I'm at about 30% health.

We are running and I notice none of the healers are healing me or removing my DoTs.
And there is one other person on the team (forget their job) with the same problem.
SO my HP gets to about 20%. I use Second Wind. Not much help. Use a potion, not much help.
I can see the healers all around me, doing NOTHING. Just riding their chocobos.
The other person with DoTs dies before my eyes, and I know it's only a matter of time before I share his fate.

And, sure enough, I also died to the DoTs , malms away from any enemy, because not even ONE of the 3 healers nearby couldn't be bothered to remove them.

I honestly never thought such a thing would happen.

Nalloncques....40+ mn of that run

AST, PLD or WAR (cant remember), 2 BLMs

BLMs stood in every single AOEs, even in the water when they spring from ground, single target mobs, didnt attack the bees, one of them was standing on top of mobs, or Boss, we even nearly wiped to the second boss because they were moving the statues all in the same places. Tank was placing them away and next you know they were placing statues where tank placed his.

For the life of me I dont know why the DPS was so slow.. I dont understand why the DPS was so slow.. no clues... one of them wa using giga ice (whatever is called) only. never Layline or any of the sort.. I rarely if ever complain in game because of DPSs or lack of DPS but here....my goodness.. When I said something finally...all they said is they are not pro and I should make my own party..Worst run ever in my entire gaming life they were even worse then me at my worst moment and believe me is hard...

40+ mn to finish that fight...last boss was a pain they never attacked the adds and I couldnt help as they were taking soo much damages for standing on top of targets...I cant even describe I should have recorded that fight ..

I finally reached Castrum Meridianum with my alt, I tried to queue for it but it never seemed to pop.
So my bf carried me through the whole duty and that allowed me to watch all the cutscenes (thing that I've not been able to do my very first time).
I died 2 times because I foolishly went to the cannons and actually got bombed and cleaved (cannons destroyed).
Let's just say that in that bit I was completely useless while my bf obliterated everything as a WAR. xD
After that run, bf has to log out and I unlock the Praetorium.

I queue for the duty but same thing as before, it takes ages and never pops.
Out of curiosity, I queue for the main story roulette that I just unlocked and it pops immediately. :confused:
I mean, if I am lucky enough I can get Prae, right? Turns out I get Castrum again, no big deal as I was curious about how much exp I would get out of it.

Tank facepulls everything, my cohealer puts regen on tank and chaos ensues. We wipe.
I was dreading someone would start to leave but everyone stays and the rest of the duty goes smoothly, sans for the monk running to the cannons after the first miniboss pulling everything and destroying cannons.:rolleyes:

After all of this I was finally able to run the Praetorium to finish that chapter of main story. Had to skip everything, but I'll probably watch the cutscenes when it will be my turn to carry my bf's alt.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

one of them wa using giga ice (whatever is called) only.

---

I remember "Giga Feu" being the French name of Fire IV, so I guess the Giga Ice you're referring to is Blizzard IV :) but...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Nalloncques....

---

Do you mean Neverreap?

Most groups I get in that has a ninja is a horror.
I have such a hard time keeping the aggro off them. =/

I was running Stone Vigil to get my monk to 50 (I like it better than the higher level dungeons) and on the first boss, about two thirds of the way through the healer dies. The tank holds out for a while, but already being low on health ends up dying too. So I pop Fists of Earth because now I am a monk tank. The machinist and I manage to get the boss nearly dead before he, too, dies to an aoe, and I end up doing the last 2 or so percent by myself. That was fun. :D The rest of the dungeon is full of friendly chatter (except for the healer who didn't seem to have a keyboard as the few things they said were via autotranslate), the tank and I find out we're from the same server and I exit the dungeon to a friend request from them. I also got a comm (we were all sad we had only one comm to give), reached my last 50 and got a whole bunch of achievements. So all in all, a very productive run. :D

Aurum Vale, Coincounter as a caster. Guess who is the target of Glower every time? Me. Healer heals my HP, never bothers to cleanse paralysis. It's ok. I'll just stand here trying to cast and fail for 10 - 20 seconds. You know I'd much rather you leave my HP as it is and just cast Esuna instead.

Want to buy Esuna as cross class skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aesteval

Aurum Vale, Coincounter as a caster. Guess who is the target of Glower every time? Me. Healer heals my HP, never bothers to cleanse paralysis. It's ok. I'll just stand here trying to cast and fail for 10 - 20 seconds. You know I'd much rather you leave my HP as it is and just cast Esuna instead.

Want to buy Esuna as cross class skill.

---

The only healer job quest that truly punishes you for not healing debuffs is, sadly, the lvl. 60 SCH one. So some healers just never learn.

That said, Glower is easy to dodge, just sprint to the side if he's facing you. If all else fails, try some Spine Drops.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fluestergras

I remember "Giga Feu" being the French name of Fire IV, so I guess the Giga Ice you're referring to is Blizzard IV :) but...

Do you mean Neverreap?

---

Neverreap yes that is it..for me is Nalloncques (cant spell that word for the life of me)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mysterysword

That said, Glower is easy to dodge, just sprint to the side if he's facing you.

---

You don't even need to sprint, just jog to the side for a few steps as soon as he turns in your direction :)
If you stand at max range, you also do not get hit by the giant "all-around" thunder either, so as a ranged DPS, you can actually evade any and all hurt.
Doesn't change the fact though that if you DO get hit, it is the healer's job to despell & heal, which his healer obviously only did half..^^°

Had a "fun" wiping shitty run yesterday. Things were bad. Just. So. Bad. First boss, things seemed decent. Forgall however, there were a few wipes. First, it was because all the DPS ignored the adds... so they blew our faces up. Next, we get to the 3 add phase. DPS stun lock the succubus and we all get terrorred. 3rd time, somehow, people didn't learn their lesson about killing the FRIGGIN adds before they blow up in our face. The tanks didn't bother picking them up, so they just ran circles around the map chasing every other person who hit them. Next go, we finally beat forgall.

So then that leads us to Ozma.... oh Ozma. First thing, alliance B decided to stand in Alliance A's spot (i was alliance A). Apparently I was the only one who was able to comprehend that they switched on us, so I was standing where Alliance A should of been. But then someone pulled before I could even ask my alliance to come over to A. So, all of Alliance A and B (aside from maybe 3 people in A with me) were at one spot. And no one frickin figured it out... they stayed there, even after I started telling people to move. So square comes up.... and orbs happen. And we have no frickin people to take the darn orbs. Long story short, people died. Lots of people died. Then we get sucked into the black hole and there's 3 people down when we go in there. So, I decide to asylum and medica II so I could attempt to manual raise my co-healer since my swiftcast was on cooldown. I guess my tank thought I loved having an add beat my ass while I attempt to raise someone. Cause he didn't even bother hitting it and I couldn't even heal myself before I went down.

Now the finger pointing game starts. Alliance B and C are calling mine out for dying so quickly. 3/4 of my alliance was not with me during the original phase part because of the switch up alliance B did and my tank decided I as the healer would be a better tank. So we all respawn and go back for more butt hurts. Yea... pretty much the same thing. Someone pulls ozma before my whole team is even on the platform (though, B did decide to let us have our actual spot again) and so our team doesn't even have frickin protect on them. Everyone made it in, but some were literally still running to get to the platform when ozma was pulled. The frenzied ensued and we wipe again. For us, it was more so just bad luck this go. During orb, i got clipped by the 1st orb. Then someone went for the 2nd orb with me still in the way T_T
Both heals died there. We wipe, my co-heal and I complain about the early pull. Every alliance is pointing fingers at us saying we're the weak link. This time, the alliances wait before pulling (and omg, we got protect and stoneskin off BEFORE we pulled). My alliance was doing great this time. I may or may not have been a bit salty and made a salty comment. :3

But we got through even though alliance A decided we should have an extra comet on our heads. Dunno how the hell we stayed up through that one, but we did. No issues with Cali though.... somehow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mysterysword

The only healer job quest that truly punishes you for not healing debuffs is, sadly, the lvl. 60 SCH one. So some healers just never learn.

That said, Glower is easy to dodge, just sprint to the side if he's facing you. If all else fails, try some Spine Drops.

---

Yeah, was running to the side but still getting hit. -_-

Sorry about the following mini-rage:

NO you do not need to pull every single monster in all of PotD. For god's sake, learn how sneaking works! (especially if the next floor is already unlocked)
There is sound- and sight-based aggro. Stop forcing the party into unnecessary fights by attacking every. single. sight-based. monster staring at the wall! :mad:

YES bronze chests matter! Gold is actually the most worthless because you can't bring anything from it back outside.
Also, if I'm going for a chest, there is no need to follow me into the room and pull all the monsters by accident because YOU STILL DON'T KNOW HOW TO SNEAK..

You do not need to step into every single giant flashy red sign on the ground if map is uncovered.
YES THAT IS A TRAP. Please do it even less if I am running next to you =_=

If you want me to believe that you have any idea what you are doing, just don't do stupid things instead of showing off your collection of Padjal weapons.
That's like showing me all your travel miles as proof that you can fly a plane. Just because you got from point A to point B does NOT proof that you have any idea what you are doing.

Also, NEWSFLASH - the mentor sign is not proof of how great you are either, even if SE was thoughtless enough to make it a crown :rolleyes:

Oh, and if you don't like your party, either just leave or endure it and rage about it later instead of destroying people's pots or pulling all monsters and killing them.
Because yes, I WILL report that.

Phew. Sorry. Really needed to get that off my chest :x
I know those are mostly small things, but it happens again and again and again and urgh.

Actually if you dont pull enough your level wont be enough for next tier but i doubt explaining this to you would do aby good..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Actually if you dont pull enough your level wont be enough for next tier but i doubt explaining this to you would do aby good..

---

...if you dont KILL enough maybe, yes. But if your level is already high enough (or your even at max level, you know, thats a thing?) there is no need to pull enemies as soon as the lamp glows. And even if you do need exp, its pretty clever not to pull just everything you see but be careful and dont just run into rooms and face-pull stuff (you know, there are enemies you might want to handle one at a time and such...)