[Dev] Overtaxation of PC Hardware

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Originally Posted by Rydin

So worst case scenario is that the game on PS3 will look much worse than the PC version, but wont be choppy, or fry any PS3's.... Of that you can be sure

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Are you really sure about that? I know of a few games that DID run choppy on the PS3... Looking at how SE handles the PC version I doubt they will handle the PS3 one better. Though on the other hand, SE's console titles were more polished.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Are you really sure about that? I know of a few games that DID run choppy on the PS3... Looking at how SE handles the PC version I doubt they will handle the PS3 one better. Though on the other hand, SE's console titles were more polished.

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Yea, It could run choppy... but on a console you'd figure that you have a lot more control (See: complete control) over the hardware being used... and the graphic settings...
Overtaxation of PC hardware, I can see how that could happen
But overtaxation of console hardware seems inexcusable.... You are removing tons of variables. the only variable left is internet connection speeds.... If it is choppy on PS3, it's because it went out the door with the devs knowing exactly how choppy a product they had

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Overtaxation of PC hardware, I can see how that could happen

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I don't.

Unless FFXIV is somehow overclocking your CPU/GPU there can't be overtaxation. Your CPU and GPU go up to 100% load and that's it, no application can squeeze them beyond that point.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

I don't.

Unless FFXIV is somehow overclocking your CPU/GPU there can't be overtaxation. Your CPU and GPU go up to 100% load and that's it, no application can squeeze them beyond that point.

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That my friend, is what we call semantics....
What over taxes doesn't mean over 100% load... thats impossible...
It means it stresses your system more than games of comparable graphic quality
Like if Solitaire pushed your GPU to 100% load and made the CPU and GPU temps skyrocket... that Solitaire would in fact be overtaxing your hardware
Hardware wasn't meant to run at 100% load round the clock.... prolonged exposure to high temps causes capacitors to go bad very fast...

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Originally Posted by Rydin

That my friend, is what we call semantics....
What over taxes doesn't mean over 100% load... thats impossible...
It means it stresses your system more than games of comparable graphic quality
Like if Solitaire pushed your GPU to 100% load and made the CPU and GPU temps skyrocket... that Solitaire would in fact be overtaxing your hardware
Hardware wasn't meant to run at 100% load round the clock.... prolonged exposure to high temps causes capacitors to go bad very fast...

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If your hardware crosses the meltdown threshold at 100% either you find what's causing it or switch to another brand.

Hardware is made to be run at 100%.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

If your hardware crosses the meltdown threshold at 100% either you find what's causing it or switch to another brand.

Hardware is made to be run at 100%.

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No, I would rather just not play the game, that isn't very good anyway. If ff14 is the only game that's doing this... 1000 other games > 1000 decent games > face book > FF14.

See problem solved, or SE solves it for me.

I don't need a giant portable heater that I have no incentives to keep alive.

"My way or the highway" remarks don't go very far when you're crap.

Delusions of Grandeur usually get the death scythe of reality. That's how it works plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

If your hardware crosses the meltdown threshold at 100% either you find what's causing it or switch to another brand.

Hardware is made to be run at 100%.

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ok...
Fine
Run Prime95, OCCT, Furmark and cinebench simultaneously for 30 days straight
according to your logic... everything will be fine

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] These are pure performance issues not overheating. Running a GPU at 100% or a CPU at event hat will shorten its lifespan which is what this is all about.

I better go tell everyone to stop encoding videos and running F@H!

Really this is as bad as the mindset that filling up a HDD over 90% will cause instability.

Stability testing burn in programs are worlds different than what XIV will ever do to your system. Get over the tech hypochondria before you take a couple dozen years off your own lifespan.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

I better go tell everyone to stop encoding videos and running F@H!

Really this is as bad as the mindset that filling up a HDD over 90% will cause instability.

Stability testing burn in programs are worlds different than what XIV will ever do to your system. Get over the tech hypochondria before you take a couple dozen years off your own lifespan.

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Actually even those won't stress it as high as FF14 does at times.

Getting over it means playing another game. In which case SE has two problems related to over taxation of pc hardware

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

No were not you sir are an idiot, were complaining about the core of the game the way it is designed to RUN on our systems. These are pure PERFORMANCE issues not overheating. Running a GPU at 100% or a CPU at event hat will shorten its lifespan which is what this is all about.

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Oh I apologize.

It's just that some *** chose "overtaxation" as this thread's topic, not "poor performance" or "low framerate" and now every ignorant teen and his dog come here to whine that the game is heating their computer too much.

BTW if you are going to whine about PC hardware being run at 100% do yourself a favor and stay on the console camp, you don't have what it takes.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Oh I apologize.

It's just that some dumbass chose "overtaxation" as this thread's topic, not "poor performance" or "low framerate" and now every ignorant teen and his dog come here to whine that the game is heating their computer too much.

BTW if you are going to whine about PC hardware being run at 100% do yourself a favor and stay on the console camp, you don't have what it takes.

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Thats true... All things being relative... A games efficient use of resources is only comparable to how similar games tax your hardware....
With that being said, FFXIV is unique in a few ways... It is a new(er) engine, so there is no true "Control Group"
You can't compare it to, say, a Metro 2033, F.E.A.R., Call of duty: Black Ops, comparing it to those games, the data can be hard to interpret, RPG to FPS is apples and oranges
FFXI, Guild wars, Rift, Wow, AoC really don't compare either... thay are indeed MMO's, but lack the graphic quality to be a fair comparison
So PC RPGs are probably the best comparison, Witcher II, Arcana: Gothic 4, even Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, Dragon Age II, Fallout's latest, Bioshocks latest (PC Versions only)
Then you have so many variables that could be stressed (CPU, GPU, RAM, VRAM, Internet connection speed, wireless interface, HDD read/write speeds), each with its own symptoms of being the bottleneck, but several being pretty similar

But you should also know I've seen HUNDREDS of capacitors pop due to heat... It happens... A LOT... So any thing causing unnecessary heat is bad....

For instance, using Direct3d 10 (the 3D API of DirectX10) as opposed to DX9, using geometry within a shader, instancing, swapping textures at the GPU as opposed to the CPU would all cause less heat in your PC...
I can't possibly stress enough the fact that heat is the #1 enemy of your PC.... Heat governs how fast and stable our processors can run, and also factors heavily into the lifespan of every component

Yes "overtaxation" is not the best name for what's happening, but it's in the thread title... deal with it... its not that big an issue.... we could call it Shabooboojibbery and it doesn't change what is going on inside your PC and the name is hardly worth arguing over

That's besides the fact that even those games that are technically and empirically superior to FF14, don't make the fans run as wild as FF14.

Games aren't suppose to turn a PC into a giant toaster oven. There is almost no reason those fans should be going crazy. There are higher performer games that make this thread relevant.

Being a beta tester, we've known this since forever. We've had all sorts of excuses, they're all been lay to rest. We've had it released, we had newer drivers, we've had tests done. This isn't smoke and mirrors and the finger is pointed straight at FF14.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That's besides the fact that even those games that are technically and empirically superior to FF14, don't make the fans run as wild as FF14.

Games aren't suppose to turn a PC into a giant toaster oven. There is almost no reason those fans should be going crazy. There are higher performer games that make this thread relevant.

Being a beta tester, we've known this since forever. We've had all sorts of excuses, they're all been lay to rest. We've had it released, we had newer drivers, we've had tests done. This isn't smoke and mirrors and the finger is pointed straight at FF14.

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This actually was brought up in Beta, and I believe SE told us they knew about it then and it was in the code for the game to constantly monitor our PC's. That was the first excuse they gave us and should have been the smoking gun from the get go. Performance has yet to really increase as it pertains to PC users, and this is definitely something SE needs to work on ASAP.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

For instance, using Direct3d 10 (the 3D API of DirectX10) as opposed to DX9, using geometry within a shader, instancing, swapping textures at the GPU as opposed to the CPU would all cause less heat in your PC...
I can't possibly stress enough the fact that heat is the #1 enemy of your PC.... Heat governs how fast and stable our processors can run, and also factors heavily into the lifespan of every component

Yes "overtaxation" is not the best name for what's happening, but it's in the thread title... deal with it... its not that big an issue.... we could call it Shabooboojibbery and it doesn't change what is going on inside your PC and the name is hardly worth arguing over

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But what if they optimized the engine? Say you would get 10 FPS more... unless your hardware is clearing 60fps it will still be at 100%.

No matter how you look at it, temperature is between you and your hardware, try getting a better case, installing water cooling, underclocking, lowering game resolution, etc..

BTW I was just playing with game settings. Dropping general drawing quality from 8 to 5, background drawing from 3 to 2 and shadows to low brought GPU temp 20C down.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

But what if they optimized the engine? Say you would get 10 FPS more... unless your hardware is clearing 60fps it will still be at 100%.

No matter how you look at it, temperature is between you and your hardware, try getting a better case, installing water cooling, underclocking, lowering game resolution, etc..

BTW I was just playing with game settings. Dropping general drawing quality from 8 to 5, background drawing from 3 to 2 and shadows to low brought GPU temp 20C down.

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The FPS has Really has very little to do with the argument at hand. I think the problem with this conversation here is were all talking about 2 different things. I know what you are trying to say and unfortunately it has no bearing on this conversational topic.

The optimal requirements for this game are a GTX 460, 2.0 GHZ Processor and 2GB of RAM and 15GB HDD space...

Right now my system is fine, it is running at 60FPS in Ul Dah with No One loaded on my screen, My GPU temperature is 45C, and all my settings are set to default standard for this game. This right now is fine I have no complaints.

The issue with the game is based on this, If I turn off FFXIV, and wait 20 minutes for my system to completely cool down to no load settings my GPU hovers at 25C, Keep in mind this may vary depending on room temp in my house, right now it is 60F outside and in my house so temps are a bit lower.

Now please explain to me how when I load the login screen the temps jump 10-15C there should be NO LOAD on that login screen.

When 1 person loads on my screen my FPS drops from 60-40 FPS and the temperature jumps on average 7-10 Degrees, in an open area not in town. DOES NOT MATTER WHAT SETTING THE GAME IS ON 1-10. It means the game engine is not properly optimized to run and play on our systems. Which means that the game is accessing out hardware more times then it should and causing temperatures to rise higher then they should by overworking our hardware. Currently overworking is probably not a big deal as most of us bought new systems, but 2-3 years down the road constantly working our hardware the way it does will cause overload and hardware will burn out.

Now SE has admitted this in posts on these very forums, as well as over the phone to various people as they have called to complain about things. Constantly running hardware at 100% is a bad thing whether it is designed to be run at said loads or not. Hence forthwith the argument at hand that yes the game is Overtaxing our hardware by causing unnecessary strain on the various components.

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Now please explain to me how when I load the login screen the temps jump 10-15C there should be NO LOAD on that login screen.

When 1 person loads on my screen my FPS drops from 60-40 FPS and the temperature jumps on average 7-10 Degrees, in an open area not in town. DOES NOT MATTER WHAT SETTING THE GAME IS ON 1-10. It means the game engine is not properly optimized to run and play on our systems. Which means that the game is accessing out hardware more times then it should and causing temperatures to rise higher then they should by overworking our hardware. Currently overworking is probably not a big deal as most of us bought new systems, but 2-3 years down the road constantly working our hardware the way it does will cause overload and hardware will burn out.

Now SE has admitted this in posts on these very forums, as well as over the phone to various people as they have called to complain about things. Constantly running hardware at 100% is a bad thing whether it is designed to be run at said loads or not. Hence forthwith the argument at hand that yes the game is Overtaxing our hardware by causing unnecessary strain on the various components.

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Going in circles here.

What you call the login screen I am guessing is the white screen with the start, opening movie, etc. options, that one has some pretty clouds in the lower area, except that SE is dumb and they are almost invisible. So there is your load.


I'll just lol here at your complaints of overworking hardware, I guess there is just no way to help you wrap your mind around the fact that CPU/GPU are made to be run at 100%, as much as you don't want it to be true.

Here's some advice: Leave your case open, lower your graphic settings. Or just wait for the PS3 version. PC gaming is all about replacing hardware often.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Going in circles here.

What you call the login screen I am guessing is the white screen with the start, opening movie, etc. options, that one has some pretty clouds in the lower area, except that SE is dumb and they are almost invisible. So there is your load.


I'll just lol here at your complaints of overworking hardware, I guess there is just no way to help you wrap your mind around the fact that CPU/GPU are made to be run at 100%, as much as you don't want it to be true.

Here's some advice: Leave your case open, lower your graphic settings. Or just wait for the PS3 version. PC gaming is all about replacing hardware often.

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Load isn't the only consideration

There are programs that use 100% of your CPU/GPU and don't heat up your system as much as other programs that cause max load

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Load isn't the only consideration

There are programs that use 100% of your CPU/GPU and don't heat up your system as much as other programs that cause max load

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Proof please.

That's a new one...

well, one thing is for sure.
no mather what, the landscapes of FFXIV put too much stress on current machines, and that without reason.
FFXIV has good graphics without doubt, but the landscapes alone shouldn't make your card hit up 80-99% (in my case that happens on both my GTX460 1gb OC 800/1600/2000), and in FFXIV they do, even without players on the screen.
it is without doubt a matter that should be taken care of regardless of temperature increasements, because if alone the landscape allready puts out so much stress, then imagine how few space there is to put in other visual effects without further straining your system.

it still makes me wonder how beautiful landscapes like in crysis 1 even on highest graphics put less stress on my machine then FFXIV's landscapes that have nothing but a few trees and random mobs in them.

a good MMO should be build up to allow for Massive action, no matter if field or dungeon, so they should prioritize their engine over alot of other things.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Proof please.

That's a new one...

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Thats the idea behind a stress test...
In modern CPU's there are floating point ALU's and integer ALU's... depending on your architecture, different programs with the same %usage can cause differing levels of heat based off of how optimized they are for that specific CPU architecture and which operations are being handled....

ALSO

A DX9 graphic intensive program could run your system at 100% load but relies on the CPU for many things that the GPU could do much more efficiently.... whereas a DX10 or DX11 game that is equally as complex will still push your system to %100 but will (In theory, it obviously depends on the coding also) run more efficiently and produce less heat.... because each process is sent to the processor that is best equiped to handle it

Like I said... run Prime95, OCCT, Furmark and Cinebench nonstop for a week and see what happens

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Going in circles here.

What you call the login screen I am guessing is the white screen with the start, opening movie, etc. options, that one has some pretty clouds in the lower area, except that SE is dumb and they are almost invisible. So there is your load.

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No What I call the login screen is the screen where you put your user and password in. Run MSI afterburner on that and watch your GPU temps. Honestly at this point tho stop with the insults, I know it was you who reported me to SE for the idiot comment, despite the fact you have been very verbal in this thread attacking others including myself for something that is so obvious you are the only one who cannot see it.

Right now you are acting like the little brother who has to be right even tho several people have explained it numerous times to you that you are indeed wrong. At this point I am just going to assume this is something you possibly do not get or cannot comprehend.

Also keep this in mind if I can run CAD software as well as Video and Audio editing software on my PC and it does not tax my PC the way XIV does then perhaps there is an issue with XIV not the PC. As many have stated before to you yes the chips are clocked and maxed then reduced to prevent hardware burnout by the manufacturers, hence why the threshold for NVIDIA GPU is 110C before it fries and goes bye bye, but personally I do not want to see that and I know others do not as well. Nor do I want to sit in a hot room while my PC is cooking bacon because the game I choose to play works my PC to hard. So think about these things before you continue to respond make yourself out to be even more of a fool on these forums then you already are.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Like I said... run Prime95, OCCT, Furmark and Cinebench nonstop for a week and see what happens

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HeHe I can only imagine what they would do if ran for a week personally I don't like to even do the 24 hour test they recommend.

So no proof, just more theories? I have yet to see any attention paid to the relation between particular opcodes and average temp, wanna do some serious testing?

So I'm no stranger to 12-24 hour stress-test cycles, what's your point with the week thing?

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No What I call the login screen is the screen where you put your user and password in. Run MSI afterburner on that and watch your GPU temps. Honestly at this point tho stop with the insults, I know it was you who reported me to SE for the idiot comment, despite the fact you have been very verbal in this thread attacking others including myself for something that is so obvious you are the only one who cannot see it.

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LMAO so ignorant, all the password screen is is an Internet Explorer instance (annoying windows exploration sounds kick in for it if enabled), my GPU voltages are at idle settings too and it reports 0% usage, CPU 0% usage at lowest multiplier step.

And nope, I didn't report you lol, nice from you to whine about it though.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

So no proof, just more theories? I have yet to see any attention paid to the relation between particular opcodes and average temp, wanna do some serious testing?

So I'm no stranger to 12-24 hour stress-test cycles, what's your point with the week thing?





LMAO so ignorant, all the password screen is is an Internet Explorer instance (annoying windows exploration sounds kick in for it if enabled), my GPU voltages are at idle settings too and it reports 0% usage, CPU 0% usage at lowest multiplier step.

And nope, I didn't report you lol, nice from you to whine about it though.

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Uhh no its not JUST an instance lol IE isn't gonna raise your temps like that. So please o exalted one explain why temps go up 15C on THAT screen before even in game. This explanation i have to hear.

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Uhh no its not JUST an instance lol IE isn't gonna raise your temps like that. So please o exalted one explain why temps go up 15C on THAT screen before even in game. This explanation i have to hear.

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Because your computer is broken at some, perhaps several levels. That or my PC is from the future where machines have found a way to avoid being Ovetaxed© by SE games.

I'd ask Mr. Occam for the answer.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Because your computer is broken at some, perhaps several levels. That or my PC is from the future where machines have found a way to avoid being Ovetaxed© by SE games.

I'd ask Mr. Occam for the answer.

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So your full of it got it. thanks for the response

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

So your full of it got it. thanks for the response

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Am I?

GPU
400Mhz, Max 700Mhz
Activity 0%

CPU
28% Frequency
7% Usage

http://picturepush.com/public/5859354

Take your PC to get checked by someone who knows what he's doing.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Am I?

GPU
400Mhz, Max 700Mhz
Activity 0%

CPU
28% Frequency
7% Usage

http://picturepush.com/public/5859354

Take your PC to get checked by someone who knows what he's doing.

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Actually no but thank you for proving my point for me, your gonna tell me you idle temp is 56C on your GPU? If so then you need to get your crap checked out.

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Actually no but thank you for proving my point for me, your gonna tell me you idle temp is 56C on your GPU? If so then you need to get your crap checked out.

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Orly? Well I get 71C under FFXIV load and the card's max safe temp is 90C, so I guess I will live with it.

But hey, lets not worry about my temps, I am not the one crying that my PC is going meltdown.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Orly? Well I get 71C under FFXIV load and the card's max safe temp is 90C, so I guess I will live with it.

But hey, lets not worry about my temps, I am not the one crying that my PC is going meltdown.

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Mines 50C after load but on a hot day yes its damn near 70 which is ridiculous I'm sorry but I don't build my PCs to watch them work that hard.

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Bumping due to lack of comment from Mods or Devs

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They already said it's being worked on.

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Mines 50C after load but on a hot day yes its damn near 70 which is ridiculous I'm sorry but I don't build my PCs to watch them work that hard.

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That's good and all, as long as you don't demand that people design games based on your weird load-under-50% fetish.

With PC gamers usually overclocking their hardware, your suggestion that the game shouldn't get to 100% load just sounds ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

That's good and all, as long as you don't demand that people design games based on your weird load-under-50% fetish.

With PC gamers usually overclocking their hardware, your suggestion that the game shouldn't get to 100% load just sounds ridiculous.

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Even non gaming programs, like video or modeling software, can reach to 100% load. It's like asking your OS to not load because it uses RAM.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

They already said it's being worked on.

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could care less what they said over 2 months ago many of us want to know a status update, being that they admit the code was messed up

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Originally Posted by Rydin

ok...
Fine
Run Prime95, OCCT, Furmark and cinebench simultaneously for 30 days straight
according to your logic... everything will be fine

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Ahahahhaha :D

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

could care less what they said over 2 months ago many of us want to know a status update, being that they admit the code was messed up

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So you want an answer...even after they already gave an answer? Even twitters of people from other companies don't constantly post updates lol. The last word is that it's hard to work with and they're going back and optimizing the source/engine.

Even on the Japanese update it still mentions engine optimizations are currently being performed (English: Is being worked on.) What more is needed? When there's another update they can easily find the thread and post. Bayo has zero problems finding topics he need to post in.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

So you want an answer...even after they already gave an answer? Even twitters of people from other companies don't constantly post updates lol. The last word is that it's hard to work with and they're going back and optimizing the source/engine.

Even on the Japanese update it still mentions engine optimizations are currently being performed (English: Is being worked on.) What more is needed? When there's another update they can easily find the thread and post. Bayo has zero problems finding topics he need to post in.

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Creepy. I agree with all Jennestia said. ^

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Mines 50C after load but on a hot day yes its damn near 70 which is ridiculous I'm sorry but I don't build my PCs to watch them work that hard.

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Then turn your settings down and quit complaining, physics doesn't bend at your whim. If you can't handle high temps and not being at the best settings then invest in water cooling. Each and every setting you turn on is going to increase load including AA/AF or VSync being turned off. The Idle temps on my stock 5870 is 55c and XIV can't push it over 80c at 33% fan speed for both, both of these are completely safe and designed by AMD to be running this way.

SE isn't going to make the game run cooler. Optimizing also means it will make more efficient use of the GPU/CPU keeper temperatures on average higher. Nothing they have ever posted has had any related to heat, only performance in general.

If you want to keep insulting the people trying to help you then enjoy your forum vacation.

Burn-in programs are specially designed to have their entire load on what it's being run on with no bottlenecks while completely saturating the Die on either the CPU/GPU. Games will never do this even if its trying to render a black screen at 2000+ FPS (voltage regulators cry when games do this) because of the lack of an FPS clamp and even then that's not as much as a Burn-in will do.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

If you want to keep insulting the people trying to help you then enjoy your forum vacation.

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I think you want to just keep insulting people's intelligence on hypocrisy alone.

It's been a much discussed problem since beta forums...all you're doing is claiming normality with a burning house in the background...it's more or less already obvious.