Toggle Jump

@ Dragon

Why do you resort to name callings, and bait and switch?

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

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Realistic. You felt as if that world existed. (again subjective)

Video Games:
Never happened yet.

There has not been nor will I think there ever will be a game that renders someone jumping but first squatting, going into there, having a brief pause than landing and squatting to break the impact.

Running and jumping has NEVER been rendered realistically in game.

It's a waste of resources and time; you would then have to account for any and all things you would possible land on.

What happens when you hit a fence by accident?
Do you trip?
Does your character fall down like a child and get a cut on your knee?

Name me ONE game that shows this as prior art; with "REALISTIC" gameplay; specific to jumping and I'll go buy it right now to try it out.

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Tell me where I said anything about how jump should be rendered realistically (hint: you're not going to find it because I never said it).

I quoted you because YOU arrogantly claimed that because a fireball isn't realistic it couldn't/shouldn't be rendered realistically. All I said was just because something isn't necessarily realistic doesn't mean it shouldn't be rendered realistically.

P.S. Running has been rendered realistically plenty of times over.

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

Avatar:
Realistic. You felt as if that world existed. (again subjective)

Video Games:
Never happened yet.

There has not been nor will I think there ever will be a game that renders someone jumping but first squatting, going into there, having a brief pause than landing and squatting to break the impact.

Running and jumping has NEVER been rendered realistically in game.

It's a waste of resources and time; you would then have to account for any and all things you would possible land on.

What happens when you hit a fence by accident?
Do you trip?
Does your character fall down like a child and get a cut on your knee?

Name me ONE game that shows this as prior art; with "REALISTIC" gameplay; specific to jumping and I'll go buy it right now to try it out.

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That is kind of the problem. It is nearly impposbru to do Jumping in a realistic manner. It doesn't matter if I can manifest fire from my hands or fight acid spewing tentacle hair balls, being able to jump my body height with no lead off and continue to do so as I trek across the game world over and over and over and over and over in Heavy plate armor is unrealistic. Just because your fantasy bends some of the rules and introduces some new ones that doesn't mean you can throw basic momentum and physical limitations out the windows because LOL FICTION!

You have to still make sense. Play by the rules. Otherwise you ruin the illusion, which is a big part of this particular MMO. Final Fantasies are first and foremost hailed for their stories and bringing the players into a world unlike their own.

It's a feature that's already past the planning stage and it's being developed.... It can be used to traverse obstacles... The maps are being designed with this in mind... >-> Why is there still any kind of arguement going on. It's going to happen no matter how much hell is raised, it's already being programmed into 2.0 deal with it.

Just for the love of god stop already. x-x

"I DON'T WANT SQUARE ENIX TO PUT JUMP INTO THE GAME AND MAKE IT SO ALL RACES CAN JUMP THE SAME HEIGHT AND HIGHER THAN THEIR LEG MUSCLES CAN TAKE THEM.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go kill something with my Dragoon."

Pretty much sums up the complaints.

Jumping is coming in 2.0. This thread was made under the idea that jumping would have no effect on the gameplay, but sense that time, information has been revealed to show that the world is being designed with a jumping mechanic in mind, so the toggle subject is no longer a valid mechanic to consider for it.

Now then, just because they're adding it dosn't mean it's nessisary for every game. XI is still fun to explore without it. Zelda has made do with auto jumping for years. Most regular RPG's do great without it. It's not nessisarily something required to make a game enjoyable. Can it add another dimention of exploration to a game? Sure, as long as it's designed with it in concept. Can a world be designed for fantastic exploration without jumping? The Dragon Quest seies is testament to that.
It's not a linear progression, it's a design choice.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Now then, just because they're adding it dosn't mean it's nessisary for every game.

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Hush your mouth I'll never admit that AAA games that have sold millions of copies for multiple itterations never had jump keys. That would be impossible!

All games must learn from Marios example, all games must have platforming.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

A good avocation for having jumping in your MMO is to shatter the entire realistic tapestry you've woven over the past 2 years by allowing people to skip up and down constantly as they frolic across your environment bypassing terrain you placed there in the first place to hinder them?

Sounds legit.

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who the F clicks like on that comment? Jumping = breaking realism? Last time i checked in real life, if you are not obese and weight 600pounds, then jumping is quite realistic.

As for the maps, what part of 2.0's new engine and completely redesigned from the ground up maps don't you get?

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

That is kind of the problem. It is nearly impposbru to do Jumping in a realistic manner. It doesn't matter if I can manifest fire from my hands or fight acid spewing tentacle hair balls, being able to jump my body height with no lead off and continue to do so as I trek across the game world over and over and over and over and over in Heavy plate armor is unrealistic. Just because your fantasy bends some of the rules and introduces some new ones that doesn't mean you can throw basic momentum and physical limitations out the windows because LOL FICTION!

You have to still make sense. Play by the rules. Otherwise you ruin the illusion, which is a big part of this particular MMO. Final Fantasies are first and foremost hailed for their stories and bringing the players into a world unlike their own.

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FFXIII-2 isn't realistic. You can gravity float. Spiraling down to the ground. lol. It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

who the F clicks like on that comment? Jumping = breaking realism? Last time i checked in real life, if you are not obese and weight 600pounds, then jumping is quite realistic.

As for the maps, what part of 2.0's new engine and completely redesigned from the ground up maps don't you get?

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I'm starting to see a trend here!

I'm just happy jumping has an actual use and I'm looking forward to using it

I thought the point of this thread was "if jumping is a useless emote, it would be nice if a toggle option was present to turn it off"

Well it's not a useless emote so why are we still fighting over it?>>

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

I'm just happy jumping has an actual use and I'm looking forward to using it

I thought the point of this thread was "if jumping is a useless emote, it would be nice if a toggle option was present to turn it off"

Well it's not a useless emote so why are we still fighting over it?>>

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Well if those that were against the toggle had stopped responding.... =\

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

I'm just happy jumping has an actual use and I'm looking forward to using it

I thought the point of this thread was "if jumping is a useless emote, it would be nice if a toggle option was present to turn it off"

Well it's not a useless emote so why are we still fighting over it?>>

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Cuz the dude who asked for that actually meant that he dislikes jumping so bad that he wants to filter it even if it's not an useless emote.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

Cuz the dude who asked for that actually meant that he dislikes jumping so bad that he wants to filter it even if it's not an useless emote.

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Point taken but I haven't seen the op post in the last 10 pages<_<(besides I never really took his point seriously anyway since I could tell he was purely against the mechanic itself)

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

Point taken but I haven't seen the op post in the last 10 pages<_<(besides I never really took his point seriously anyway since I could tell he was purely against the mechanic itself)

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For some reason i though the OP was Zaaku. I take that back... It's all Zaaku's fault.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

For some reason i though the OP was Zaaku. I take that back... It's all Zaaku's fault.

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What did I do? ; - ;

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

What did I do? ; - ;

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Everything.

/disclaimer:notmyopinion

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

That is kind of the problem. It is nearly impposbru to do Jumping in a realistic manner. It doesn't matter if I can manifest fire from my hands or fight acid spewing tentacle hair balls, being able to jump my body height with no lead off and continue to do so as I trek across the game world over and over and over and over and over in Heavy plate armor is unrealistic. Just because your fantasy bends some of the rules and introduces some new ones that doesn't mean you can throw basic momentum and physical limitations out the windows because LOL FICTION!

You have to still make sense. Play by the rules. Otherwise you ruin the illusion, which is a big part of this particular MMO. Final Fantasies are first and foremost hailed for their stories and bringing the players into a world unlike their own.

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just as unrealistic as my dragoon jumping 12 feet in the air, or cloud jumping with the help of friends slinging him several hundred feet in the air in advent children, "fantasy" is not supposed to be realistic it is supposed to bend/break the rules.

PS: love how all the sudden the "not" pissed crowd of anti-jumpers are coming in full force, at least Gramul kept to his stance and was mature about the situation

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Originally Posted by Krausus

just as unrealistic as my dragoon jumping 12 feet in the air, or cloud jumping with the help of friends slinging him several hundred feet in the air in advent children, "fantasy" is not supposed to be realistic it is supposed to bend/break the rules.

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Though there is such a thing as 'realistic fantasy'. It's still fantasy but still has hints of realism, iirc is technically defined as 'Low Fantasy'.

Now lets all be friend and kiss.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Zelda has made do with auto jumping for years.

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Zelda II >< just sayin =P

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Though there is such a thing as 'realistic fantasy'. It's still fantasy but still has hints of realism, iirc is technically defined as 'Low Fantasy'.

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Conan I would define as low fantasy, FF is as about as far away from low fantasy as you can get.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

just as unrealistic as my dragoon jumping 12 feet in the air, or cloud jumping with the help of friends slinging him several hundred feet in the air in advent children, "fantasy" is not supposed to be realistic it is supposed to bend/break the rules.

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Dragoons use an ability to Jump very very very high and come down with their lance on an enemy. It is an iconic move for an iconic class. It also has nearly a minute cool down. That is part of the rule bending we talked about earlier. I can suspend my disbelief about the Dragoon's leaping prowess because that is what they do. I attribute it to some kind of Magic or Skill they've honed. Much like how I accept White Mage's can magically mend flesh.

That doesn't mean I think everyone can Jump like a Dragoon, at all times, without even being on the class. That is something that takes me out of the Fantasy because instead of enjoying the game I have to scratch my head and say, "How can I jump what scales out to be 5 feet into the air as quickly as gravity will allow while donning what should be insanely heavy armor? Or how can the Lalafell jump as high as a Hyur?"

And Advent Children is a movie. Not a game and that was one of the reason's I disliked it so much. They were over the top running up walled Dragon Ball Z physics everywhere silly during the final confrontation. While the rest of the cast were more in line with how the actual GAME physics and limitations allowed.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

That is something that takes me out of the Fantasy because instead of enjoying the game I have to scratch my head and say, "How can I jump what scales out to be 5 feet into the air as quickly as gravity will allow while donning what should be insanely heavy armor? Or how can the Lalafell jump as high as a Hyur?"

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You are being awfully selective about what draws you out of the game. How can a tiny Lalafell take a hit from a giant monster just as well as a Roegadyn? How can characters who wear full plate armor run just as fast as those who wear light armor? Even beyond that, how can a Lalafell run as fast as an Elzen when their legs are so short? Do these questions pop into your head at all or are you just making things up to pretend that you actually have a point?

The reason why Lalafells can run as fast as Elzen and why the two races will be able to jump just as high as each other is for the sake of balance. If a Lalafell could get stomped into the ground by an average boss attack, like they realistically should, why would anyone want to play them?

If something as small as jumping actually takes you out of the game but these other things don't, I really don't know what to tell you besides this: you have obviously taken the time to accept the rules and mechanics of the Final Fantasy world(s), in time, you will come to accept jumping. Change happens all the time, if it didn't, we wouldn't have Final Fantasy XIV, we would still be on the original Final Fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Though there is such a thing as 'realistic fantasy'. It's still fantasy but still has hints of realism, iirc is technically defined as 'Low Fantasy'.

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But that's wrong. FFXIV has been high fantasy since it was announced.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

just as unrealistic as my dragoon jumping 12 feet in the air, or cloud jumping with the help of friends slinging him several hundred feet in the air in advent children, "fantasy" is not supposed to be realistic it is supposed to bend/break the rules.

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Fantasy may not be realistic but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be rendered realistically.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

And Advent Children is a movie. Not a game and that was one of the reason's I disliked it so much. They were over the top running up walled Dragon Ball Z physics everywhere silly during the final confrontation. While the rest of the cast were more in line with how the actual GAME physics and limitations allowed.

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what about this final fantasy game? it has jump in it.

"I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO JUMP EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME WHENEVER THEY WANT BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T HONED ALL THEIR SKILLS OR HAVE THE MAGIC TO BE ABLE TO DO IT ALL THE TIME AND IT BREAKS IMMERSIONS.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to run at a pretty good pace for hours on end, and never have to use the bathroom ever."

Toogle to turn off jump?
what about a toogle to turn off walking, running, riding, casting or dying?

More info about jump:

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

Next, the scene with lalafel jumping. Is this really jump? Or is the cut scene just looks that way?

吉田氏：ジャンプです。
Yoshida: It’s jumping

――任意でジャンプできるのですか？
You can jump at will?

吉田氏：できます。全種族できます。普通のジャンプです。
Yoshida: Yes you can. Every race can. This is regular jump.

――ちょっとしたところだったらジャンプで上れたりも？
You can jump and get on some ledges?

吉田氏：できます。
Yoshida: Yes

――それはもうゲームの行動様式が変わりますね。
With that it’s going to change the movement entirely.

吉田氏：それが狙いです。それ前提にマップを全部作り直していますので。
Yoshida: That’s the goal. We are remodeling all the map with that in mind.

――今はちょっとした凹凸でもすごく遠回りしなくちゃいけないじゃないですか。
Right now you have to go all the way around for some bumps

吉田氏：そういったことはまったくないです。ただ、角度で上れるかどうかを判定していますので、見た目60度以上の場所は登れません、とか。それの実験風景なんかも今後プロモーションサイトで開発の進捗にあわせて公開していこうかなと思っています。
Yoshida: You won’t have those. However we are looking at the angle to decide if you can go up or not so if it’s more than 60 degrees you can’t or something like that. We also want to show the testing in the promo site along with developments updates.

――今後は崖をバーッと降りられる？
Can you jump down cliffs?

吉田氏：はい。グラフィックスが壊れない限界までは大丈夫です。道がなければ歩けないということはないですね、もう。ただ、あまりに高いところは、複雑骨折させるわけにはいかないので（笑）、落ちないように柵などを設けるかもしれません。
Yoshida: Yes. As long as it doesn’t break the graphics it should be ok. It’s not where if you don’t see the road you can’t walk. However if it’s too high we can’t have you break all your bones (laugh) so we have to have fence or something like that.


――自由な上り下りという点では逆にキャラクターのスタックが怖いですね。
Bit scary when you can freely move up and down and getting your character stuck.

吉田氏：すみません、そこはもうデジョンかレポートしてくださいという（笑）。もちろん、きっちりデバッグは行なった上
での極論ではありますが、それでも僕はその怖さより自由度の方がゲームは大切だと思っています。
Yoshida: Sorry for that part please just use return or report (laugh). We that’s the conclusion after carefully debugging but for me I think it’s more important to have the game to have more freedom than to be scared.

――このジャンプや飛び降りによって新しいゲーム性は何か加わるのですか？
With this type of jump will there be new game system involved?

吉田氏：僕 は、そこは逆にアクション性はあまり持たせるべきではないと思っているので、やはり表現だっ たり、移動の1つの方法として使っていただければそれでいいかなと思っています。僕は地面に縛り付けられている感じが本当に嫌なので、町の中を走っている 時に、楽しいからずっとジャンプをしていてもぜんぜんいいんじゃないのと思っています。
Yoshida: I believe I don’t want to make it action based so it’s basically for expression or as another method for movement. I really don’t like the feeling of being grounded to the floor , so I think it’s OK to be able to jump for fun when running inside the town.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post723328

Can we stop now the anti-jump campaign?
Or are you all just scared that you can freely move up and down and getting your character stuck?

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Originally Posted by Krausus

Zelda II >< just sayin =P

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And Minish Cap had Roc's cape.

I'm using the 3D ones as an example.

To me we really need to see, or discuss not just yes/no jumping. But if theres jumping what kind of jumping are we discussing?

Bunny hops?
A real jump where you have to really leap with your legs and knees.
Or are we lunging with full power with the need to steady ourselves at the landing?

Jumping for the sake of jumping, i don't subscribe to myself. I think a game can be just fine without it. But if its not animated like a jump that impacts your movement like a jump, and gives you not a requirement, but a reason to jump then its fine.

If its hopping just to hop, oh and go over fences, then it hardly matters no matter what people use it for, be it Boredom, annoyance or whatever.

吉田氏：はい。グラフィックスが壊れない限界までは大丈夫です。道がなければ歩けないということはないですね、もう。ただ、あまりに高いところは、複雑骨折させるわけにはいかないので（笑）、落ちないように柵などを設けるかもしれません。
Yoshida: Yes. As long as it doesn’t break the graphics it should be ok. It’s not where if you don’t see the road you can’t walk. However if it’s too high we can’t have you break all your bones (laugh) so we have to have fence or something like that.

Seems that Yoshi might be interested in a little realistic jumping.

I agree with the idea of suspension of disbelief. The Advent Children (final scene especially) was completely ruined for me because of the sudden ability of the characters to fly. I was like "wait, i wasn't allowed to fly in FFVII, did I miss a special materia or something?"

With that in mind, the ability to jump does not break the suspension of disbelief, but a taru and a cat-person jumping the same height is going to have some issues... not just in looking realistic, but in looking good in the first place. They are going to have to make lalafell do some strange floating in the air hovering jumps to match the time/distance of a cat. Either that or they will have to make the cat-jump lackluster.

Since the development team cares about making high quality graphics as one of its "three pillars", this is going to be a big issue if it's not carefully approached.

For those of you who like to spout "deal with it" or "this thread should end" or similar unconstructive responses, you don't need to post here, there are many other threads where you can have wonderful discussion. The jump isn't even in the game yet, so all of this talk is speculation and part of what makes the game so much fun is speculating about the future of it. So, I will speculate and you can join me if you wish.

Again, for me, it's not necessarily about 'realism', it's about artistic integrity. The aesthetic and style of XIV is one of the few things setting it apart from the plethora of other MMO, and I just don't want something that is going to majorly clash with what's already in place. Seeing lalafells jumping 5 times their height across the fields of Eorzea would be rather bothersome, not because it's unrealistic or even annoying, but because it would look silly and out of place. As I said, I don't care about jumping...as long as it looks tasteful

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Originally Posted by Felis

Toogle to turn off jump?
what about a toogle to turn off walking, running, riding, casting or dying?

More info about jump:

Can we stop now the anti-jump campaign?
Or are you all just scared that you can freely move up and down and getting your character stuck?

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I posted this earlier, but it didn't seem to stick that well. Thanks for posting it again :D.

I guess the true test would be to see how high the jumps are, a small hop of a foot or two won't distract me at all. I'm mainly looking at my character's movements most anyways.

As long as it's not totally unrealistic like Perfect World where you pretty much bounce about 30 feet in the air and it takes you 10 seconds to get back to the ground, I won't have a problem =)

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Originally Posted by Andrien

what about this final fantasy game? it has jump in it.

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Again you are picking the absolute worst possible examples of Jumping in Final Fantasy. Mainly to say they DID ruin the concept of the original game's physics and laws of character movement. That makes them very difficult to connect with when before you may have hopped 6 or so rocks to cross a river then suddenly everyone is a stunt double for Crouching Taru Hidden Meat Sausage.

Jumping is not purely there to have jump, Yoshida said it will have functional purposes such as to ascend/descend ledges, cross obstacles etc.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Again you are picking the absolute worst possible examples of Jumping in Final Fantasy. Mainly to say they DID ruin the concept of the original game's physics and laws of character movement. That makes them very difficult to connect with when before you may have hopped 6 or so rocks to cross a river then suddenly everyone is a stunt double for Crouching Taru Hidden Meat Sausage.

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http://i.imgur.com/XttZy.jpg

Imagine if a once tail-free race suddenly acquire tails after a patch. That would make absolutely no sense, how could you explain that? That would ruin any suspension of disbelief this game offers. At least with jumping it could be explained that gravitational shift caused by Dalamud's descent allows this.