How to Dragoon Per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by Dervy

0.1s leeway for HT reapplication. Shouldve made it clearer. As you can see, C2 has 0.1s left on HT when you go and actually damage your opponent. Animation buff delay is awesome sometimes.

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So while the +15% on HT is nice, it's not really something that dragoons should be optimizing for or even taking into account when specing the class. It's not some sort of magical threshhold that a dragoon must reach or significantly suffer in his dps.

The 15% of HT on HT is worth an unbuffed (no BL/BFB/IR) 25.5 potency. Or about 1 potency per second. Roughly 1% of our damage. Superior stat weighs will counteract it.

That's not a threshold or a number we should be optimizing for and it's not a big deal if we don't get it perfectly. I mean, we had a similar situation with CT and Pb last patch where any error in judgment/play resulted in a dropoff and SS builds were pretty rare in general.

I guess my argument is that HT clipping is just not big enough of a deal to be a priority.

You keep mentioning 2.5GCD. I don't really know why you're so fixated about it. You mentioned that a good Dragon will hold Geirskogul due to mechanics in boss fights (which we agree) and that we should hold Geirskogul for a few more cycles so we can keep BotD up... Then you state that there's a mandatory check for Geirskogul usage at 2.5GCD.

Using the rotation at 2.5GCD, according to you, requires a lot more strict usage of Geirskogul, which makes it incapable of being used in certain fights, especially Ravana EX and Bismarck EX, where it's necessary to hold Geirskogul for phases. Moon Naga phase and Liberation are two mechanics which comes into mind in Ravana EX where you HAVE to hold Geirskogul otherwise you'll lose BotD.

Not only this, Ravana EX has a mechanic called "The Seeing X", where he parries all physical attacks in the position where "X" was, for 4s. It just so happens that the first "The Seeing" comes at 10s. At a GCD of 2.4 and attacking Ravana at the same time of your tank allows you to fit in the "4th" positional without getting RNG'd by The Seeing X. At 2.5GCD, you will not have that luxury and will have to move, not hitting your positional and taking a 190 potency hit MULTIPLE times throughout the fight.

You're being severely handicapped at 2.5 GCD from an End-Game perspective, trust me on this and I'm positive other Dragoons who are up to Ravana EX can agree with me on this.

And if you read the post correctly, I even showed you the math that 2.4GCD yields a higher PPS than 2.5GCD and that's hitting all HT's. It amounts to around 0.3 PPS loss each time you miss an HT. That sounds like nothing, but over the duration of a battle that lasts upwards of 10-15 minutes? It all adds up.

Is it possible to bypass the 58 quest and do 60? If you don't learn Wheeling Thrust, then Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust will both proc Fang and Claw 100% of the time...to what benefit then is there in even having Wheeling Thrust when it's the same potency/effect, but different position. Unless, of course, you can't unlock Geir unless you get WT :/

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Is it possible to bypass the 58 quest and do 60? If you don't learn Wheeling Thrust, then Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust will both proc Fang and Claw 100% of the time...to what benefit then is there in even having Wheeling Thrust when it's the same potency/effect, but different position. Unless, of course, you can't unlock Geir unless you get WT :/

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You cannot bypass the level 58 quest. You must do that quest in order to do the final job quest and get the final skill.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Is it possible to bypass the 58 quest and do 60? If you don't learn Wheeling Thrust, then Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust will both proc Fang and Claw 100% of the time...to what benefit then is there in even having Wheeling Thrust when it's the same potency/effect, but different position. Unless, of course, you can't unlock Geir unless you get WT :/

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If that were possible it would be an oversight on SE's part and would be promptly patched. They wouldn't design our rotation to work a certain way only to have it circumvented. Get wheeling and start getting practice with both it and FaC sooner rather than later.

Yep, the whole Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw having 50% procs is definitely a design oversight imo. They should have made it proc both and allow you to decide which to use. Boss A does AOE attacks from behind regularly? Use Fang & Claw. Boss B doesn't move around much but you have low ACC or just want to use your combo4 right after Chaos Thrust? Use Wheeling Thrust! Why make us go out of our way to use our combo4 in our rotations and let RNG control the rotations we use?

Giving them 100 potency on missed positional is dumb. :/

A FC mate was testing changes within the critical hit rate stat with SCH. He seemed to notice that there were no significant changes in crit rate from 460 to 650+ (around 1%), and barely noticed any critical hit damage increase/decrease. The samples weren't enormous, granted, but it kind of worried me. Is there any progress on fleshing out the math behind the new stat and skills related to it?

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

A FC mate was testing changes within the critical hit rate stat with SCH. He seemed to notice that there were no significant changes in crit rate from 460 to 650+ (around 1%), and barely noticed any critical hit damage increase/decrease. The samples weren't enormous, granted, but it kind of worried me. Is there any progress on fleshing out the math behind the new stat and skills related to it?

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At 657 crit rate, I'm narrowing in on 12% crit rate, with at least a 1.519x multiplier. So, I don't know where he's getting only 1% change from, unless he's saying that 460 rate also has about 12% rate, which would be insane.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

At 657 crit rate, I'm narrowing in on 12% crit rate, with at least a 1.519x multiplier. So, I don't know where he's getting only 1% change from, unless he's saying that 460 rate also has about 12% rate, which would be insane.

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I meant change in 1% as "from 8% to 9%" (example, I don't remember the exact numbers). So from 12% to 13%, like.

And how big was his spread of data? 500 hits? Cause you need at least 10000 hits per data point for CRT to be accurate.

Check the SimFF thread for more accurate numbers.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

And how big was his spread of data? 500 hits? Cause you need at least 10000 hits per data point for CRT to be accurate.

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Wait, you only want 10,000 hits? That's still like, half a percent on either side. :P

Hahahaha, oh you :P.

But yeah, you need a massive spread of Data to measure RNG like Crit.

Also, the JP guys have done work and found that the base rate for level 60 is 5% CRT: http://ku-so.hatenadiary.jp/entry/2015/06/20/105345

Maybe if Sunny or I think it's Mibhas to knows Japaneseish can somewhat translate? :D I'll post this in the SimFF thread as well for Pandabearcat to see.

It's nothing substantial so far... he was pretty much watching his crit% go down as he leveled. The 5% thing held at other levels, too (on an aside: it might be slightly higher than 5%; Puro's data is the only place I've seen it be that low but then again RN gonna G... and ain't nobody got time for the 750k hits to get another sig fig anyway). And that yes the crits are more than 1.5x buff now.

Wonder why ffxiv has rescaled stays but ffxi had progressive stats. Like at low levels critical hit rate was 5-10% but at 99 with ilvl119 gear in XI, could get like 40-60% crit rate. Didn't affect difficulty much. Same with damage mitigation. I feel like at 60, with 180 gear, we're going to be pretty much right back where we were at 50 with i130 gear e.g. similar crit rate and similar dps relative to the other dps. Meh

XI was similar. Your critical hit rate was derived of a 5% base with a player DEX vs enemy AGI formula to determine whether it went any higher. The stronger the enemy, the lower your crit rate.

It wasn't until Abyssea and Seekers of Adoulin that gear with ridiculous amounts of powerful damage boosting stats were introduced in order to compensate for insanely strong enemies compared to a base level 99 character..

For anyone interested, solo tank ravana EX with a Ninja, i172 and playing risky as hell:

http://i.imgur.com/HN20LlK.png

Would of been 730 parse but I went panic mode last minute and lose deeps. This is literally a perfect run with 0 BotD drops (except for planned ones) and hitting nearly all positionals with an i180 weapon...

EDIT: Unmerged btw.

Getting the hang of the new rotation, but every so often my old muscle memory creeps up and says "hey, hey guy, you know that old rotation you spent so much time practicing and fine tuning? Yeah, just do that" I end up skiping the 4 hit and losing my BotD :\

Just wondering, since the introduction of BotD, has the priority changed for limit break duty? I would imagine monks are still the last ones you want to LB, but dont know for sure

finally 60 boys

the i145 weapon ravana struggles, did like 600 ROFL

How I have my PS4 controller setup in case anyone wanted ideas. Took the big row idea from Dervy.

http://i.imgur.com/unBS7jI.png

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Originally Posted by jehuty08

Getting the hang of the new rotation, but every so often my old muscle memory creeps up and says "hey, hey guy, you know that old rotation you spent so much time practicing and fine tuning? Yeah, just do that" I end up skiping the 4 hit and losing my BotD :\

Just wondering, since the introduction of BotD, has the priority changed for limit break duty? I would imagine monks are still the last ones you want to LB, but dont know for sure

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This. I find myself going straight to Phlebotomize by reflex after I finish IDC instead of doing a 4th. :P 'Tis annoying, but when you've ingrained something in muscle memory for nearly two years...

That said, I'm loving the new play of DRG. It's exactly what I wanted from the expansion - more stuff to do for more damage. The fact that the rotation itself is less than half as long as it used to be is just a bonus.

@Noxotic - Nice setup! I use the LT+RT bar pretty much exclusively for cooldowns and like you I've got six of them stacked in vertical hotbars next to the crossbar to track them more easily. I found that I'm making much fewer mistakes since I did that.

I couldn't have either combo on the d pad, just limits movement for me

I hate trying to land 4th on small, player sized mobs like in Vault because their positional circle is so small, and with effects flying everywhere I often miss, resulting in a sad 200-230 damage Wheeling Thrust/F&C. Couldn't they have at least gave it like 180 potency from any direction, but 290 from the positional or something?

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I hate trying to land 4th on small, player sized mobs like in Vault because their positional circle is so small, and with effects flying everywhere I often miss, resulting in a sad 200-230 damage Wheeling Thrust/F&C. Couldn't they have at least gave it like 180 potency from any direction, but 290 from the positional or something?

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I've noticed that too. I've had all party and mob effects disabled ever since I did T6 the first time, which helps, but it's still hard if the tank likes moving around. The 4ths are bloody useless if you don't get the positional, but considering our raw output I think that's fair enough at this point.

EDIT: I'd like to talk about helmets. Using our old statweights, the Valerian helmet is better by about 7-ish relative STR when compared to the unupgraded Law helmet. The Law helmet does have lots of crit though, and considering the changes to crit perhaps it is better anyway?

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

finally 60 boys

the i145 weapon ravana struggles, did like 600 ROFL

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This topic wouldn't be right, without a Yan weapon struggle.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I've noticed that too. I've had all party and mob effects disabled ever since I did T6 the first time, which helps, but it's still hard if the tank likes moving around. The 4ths are bloody useless if you don't get the positional, but considering our raw output I think that's fair enough at this point.

EDIT: I'd like to talk about helmets. Using our old statweights, the Valerian helmet is better by about 7-ish relative STR when compared to the unupgraded Law helmet. The Law helmet does have lots of crit though, and considering the changes to crit perhaps it is better anyway?

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http://33.media.tumblr.com/8d18d5f52...xzoro1_500.gif
#whenyoupresswheelingthrustandyoujustgotaggro

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

#whenyoupresswheelingthrustandyoujustgotaggro

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Still smile every time I rip my main target off the tank. ;)

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Originally Posted by seekified

EDIT: I'd like to talk about helmets. Using our old statweights, the Valerian helmet is better by about 7-ish relative STR when compared to the unupgraded Law helmet. The Law helmet does have lots of crit though, and considering the changes to crit perhaps it is better anyway?

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If I can't get updated weights before the 8th July, next time you'll get them is the 1st, unless people do a massive data-collection survey for me, then I might be able to sort something out whilst I'm away. I'll need A LOT of Data Points to recalculate the damage formula as I don't believe DET is the only thing that's changed.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

If I can't get updated weights before the 8th July, next time you'll get them is the 1st, unless people do a massive data-collection survey for me, then I might be able to sort something out whilst I'm away. I'll need A LOT of Data Points to recalculate the damage formula as I don't believe DET is the only thing that's changed.

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Prolly easier if you hit me up ingame now that we're on the same server if there's something I can help you test - my monitoring of these forum threads come and go in waves so I tend to miss stuff. :p

So, I was getting extremely frustrated with DRG. To the point that I had begun leveling MNK. This mainly stemmed from the fact that as I got closer and closer to 179, my DPS seemed to lag considerably behind what I knew it should be based on various parses I'd seen from people at a similar gear level.

I spent hours last week trying to perfect my rotation. Yet I couldn't seen to break 750-800 dps sustained no matter how hard I tried. I'd begun to despair that maybe I just sucked at DRG.

That was until Saturday night. My static was putting together our first BIS EX run and decided to test all the DPS going since some of us were on new classes. Our NIN had been bragging all night about sustaining 1k DPS, so I wasn't particularly hopeful. We had a BRD, NIN, SMN, and myself DRG ready to go then we started the contest. We parsed for about 3 1/2 minutes and when the dust settled they read off the rankings.

1100 DPS sustained. Guess my parser is broken >.<

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Originally Posted by FreyrPrime

Our NIN had been bragging all night about sustaining 1k DPS, so I wasn't particularly hopeful. We had a BRD, NIN, SMN, and myself DRG ready to go then we started the contest. We parsed for about 3 1/2 minutes and when the dust settled they read off the rankings.

1100 DPS sustained. Guess my parser is broken >.<

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If you've changed some filtering settings in ACT or altered the DoT tracking that can happen. ;) 1100 sustained is pretty much where we want to be at this point so nice one!

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Originally Posted by Dervy

If I can't get updated weights before the 8th July, next time you'll get them is the 1st, unless people do a massive data-collection survey for me, then I might be able to sort something out whilst I'm away. I'll need A LOT of Data Points to recalculate the damage formula as I don't believe DET is the only thing that's changed.

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Nope, pretty sure all four damage stats have changed. Det obviously changed auto-attack, but my level 50 auto-attack stayed the same or went up, so either STR or WD went up to compensate, and then crit and SS have obvious changes that need to be worked out. . .

Pretty much, I need a lot of parses with:

High Strength, High Det
High Strength, Low Det
Low Strength, low Strength

With 0 WD, Max WD, and WDs in between.

That's a lot of data points....

As for the Potency... I really don't know how to do it, as it's obvious 300 Potency is like Potency*3.03+. I guess it doesn't really matter what the potency is.

Quick question for the experts.

In the event of a mistimed Geirskogul, say at 20-21 seconds. I know if I continue my rotation as normal I'll drop BotD. Is it a DPS loss to forego a Heavy Thrust or Phleb in order to shave 2.5 seconds off your rotation and thus maintain BotD or do I just let it drop off?

Depends how close you are to your next BotD, but generally speaking, let Phlebotomize drop and don't reapply it. It's a 1PPS loss in the grand scheme of things. Missing HT is a 3 PPS loss, and dropping BotD is a 8PPS loss.

So I decided to switch back to drg, finally got into the game (missed early access since I was out of town). Drgs new abilities really seemed to grab me for this expansion , they seem interesting and challenging. I kept up with my drg even after switching to nin after its release, so the change back shouldn't be too much if a shock to my fingers.

BotD just seems so interesting, it's ridiculous.

How much should a drg be on average and at best be parsing in bismark ex?

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Originally Posted by seekified

Still smile every time I rip my main target off the tank. ;)

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that feel when even undergeared DRKs are hard to rip off of because of extra enmity

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Originally Posted by seekified

Still smile every time I rip my main target off the tank. ;)

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As a DRG that secondaries tanking jobs, none of this. Cmon now, you have the best aggro dump in the game and a shiny aggro meter under your name... don't perpetuate loldrg by not watching your hate D: Especially now with these positionals!

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

As a DRG that secondaries tanking jobs, none of this. Cmon now, you have the best aggro dump in the game and a shiny aggro meter under your name... don't perpetuate loldrg by not watching your hate D: Especially now with these positionals!

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Agreed. Think of the group, shed your hate.

That being said, in trash content like WoD or certain trials I don't mind popping some defensives and tanking just a little before I EJ. ;)

My secondary is PLD though, so tank responsibly.