[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

I think this thread's OP is a very good fix perhaps even better than this one.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...izations/page4

I think we should really consider both.

Those guys haven't answered that question.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Yes thats correct. Although you would not be locked into those classes. You still have the freedom to redo your talent points and spend them on a different advanced class for that base class.

Let's say your PUG was specced into a 50 MNK and you decided you wanted to play NIN instead. Assuming you have done the quest for NIN you would simply remove your talent points. When you remove all your points your stats go down to what they would be for 50 base PUG and your MNK specific traits/abilities will be unequipped. You then put those points into NIN and you can then play a 50 NIN.

It sounds weird if you're coming from FFXI only but this is standard fair for anyone thats played another MMO, namely WoW. Don't think of it as playing a different class altogether. You're taking your base class and changing your role. Your role in this case is NIN (tank).

Thanks for the kind comments all

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The ranking up of several different classes to "unlock" advanced classes idea I like. But as Speeral stated, I hope they do something kind of different than talent trees.

Also would like to mention that I'm a fan of FFXI's merit point system

FFXI's merit point system is a talent tree in concept without the GUI. So is the Actions Menu in FFXIV. Same concept different looks.

What I mean is that I don't want there to be "points" to become a certain advanced class, in which you would have to reallocate points if you wanted to become a different advance class from that same "branch". I'd prefer that once you have the correct ranked classes and do some kind of quest, you could then become that advanced class by just changing your weapon and that advanced class would start out as rank 1. Maybe NIN could use Katanas.

You have some good ideas Kuro but I kind of prefer the FFT kind of style.

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

You are right, arguing with fools like yourself is a waste of time. Imposing your will on others is a great method of argument. It's really engrossing and helps people to grow.

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Show me exactly how I have imposed my will on anyone? I may have obviously implied that through your posting have shown me you aren't very intelligent. However, I did back up my claims. Something that you have not done, and since you cannot understand me or back up your claims, you are left with getting butthurt and telling me I'm stupid. Trust me, what you say cannot offend me.

Let me explain something about an opinion. When you think of something, and consider it for yourself, that is an opinion. Once you bring it out to the light of day and share it with others, you are making a claim. An argument arises when two people have differing claims. Two people can have different opinions, but if neither claims it in public or to others, or if one claims something and then the other doesn't really care here, then an argument will not occur. In an argument, when trying to prove your point, the idea is to propose ideas that have 2 things. The first part of proposing in an argument is premises. Premises when applied allow you to reach a conclusion. Usually the conclusion is your original idea, so the way you discuss things with people like an intelligent human being is to find premises to support your idea. If your premises are true, and the logic follows through to a logical conclusion for that train of thought, then the argument is both valid, and sound. Now we are dealing more with inductive arguments here, so... this means we are dealing with probability. This means even I am not arguing for certainty, but am I using logical thought and a proper method of supporting my ideas so I am arguing for what is probable. I am saying this method is most likely the better one for making an engaging and balanced game.

You are also claiming your idea is better, but basically ignoring every argument I make and just saying "well its just my opinion." But it isnt your opinion, you are on an open forum on the internet making that opinion public, claiming its truth to people who will likely disagree, and then getting mad that I mock you for not making the first valid argument to support yourself.

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

D&D is so bad btw, that's why no one plays it... it gives the player freedom, how dare they not be forced into rigid roles with rigid restrictions because poor baby Siat failed art class and can't come up with a character on his own. Hopefully you'll quit before your illogical, irrational, and inane banter spreads to others.

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Actually, to be accurate here, D&D does have classes and roles. It is nothing like you claim about not being forced into roles. The game is also moderated by a real person who can use reason to make decisions, versus a game that relies on what can sensibly be programmed into it. There is little comparison between any pen and paper role playing game, and a massive multiplayer online adventure game. However, we cannot judge the quality of D&D campaigns we have played because that is based on an individual GM and how they run that campaign. But I digress since mentioning D&D at all was me being sarcastic. It has little to do with the actual discussion at hand and shows your lack of comprehension of obvious sarcasm.

Ironically, I have been nothing but logical and rational in this discussion. Being rude does not equal being illogical, irrational, or inane. Also being rude does not equal me forcing anything on anyone. It is simply honest contempt for someone foolish ranting endlessly with no valid point.

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

I'll put it simply for you in big letters because apparently you're either a troll or a moron. Probably a mix of the both.

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Let me give a response to this of the same value: Cool story bro.

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE GAME MOST KNOW THIS. SCRAPPING SYSTEMS, ADDING RESTRICTIONS THAT FORCE YOU INTO X SETUP AND REMOVING THE ABILITY TO CREATE A CHARACTER BUT SIMPLY LEVELING A CLASS are not the answers. They are your narrow-minded stoneage answers.

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Quote where I said there were no problems with the game now? Then, quote where myself or Kurokikzae suggested to scrap completely what is currently in the game? As far as I can tell by reading every page of this thread, and making sure I was clear on what was being suggested, the idea is to add this system to what is currently there. In other words there is no scrapping going on here. Are we suggesting adding a bit of restriction? Yes, because the game sorely needs it. The thing is you are unable to grasp exactly how lenient the system is and are baselessly attacking it. What you seem to be assuming is that it has at any time been suggested that you will be locked into anything permanently, and you can only come to that conclusion by either not reading or not being able to comprehend what you are reading. By setting abilities as a gladiator that allow you to tank better versus being a damage dealer, you are effectively a paladin just being called a gladiator. What is the difference in that and becoming a class called paladin at the same level? Its like someone mentioned earlier about a Solider becoming a Knight in an older FF game, its a name change but if the Knight was still called a soldier it wouldn't change anything. Classes are a problem that has been suggested by the majority of players in the players polls as being important to the current playerbase, specifically that people want the traditional roles. What is suggested here is actually more open ended than that old FF game and actually adds multiple paths and customization, and actually adds depth by adding passive traits based on which direction you go in. It is more versatile also than the sub job system from ffxi which restricted you to one main class and one sub class. The gladiator will still have access to other low level skills, there is just a limit being placed on the current almost total freedom.

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Did you know there a re millions of people out there who thought final fantasy xi was a pile of shit? Crazy huh, you 500,000 can't figure that out can you?

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What is your point here, what are you replying to?

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Edit: Oh wise Siatit, I'd love to hear how it's any diff in a year or so when everyone has every CLASS leveled to 75 or 50 or 80 or 90 whatever the cap may be. Everyone can do everything. How terrible that will be.

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What are you implying here? I understand you disagree and think that I'm wrong but you have yet to refute anything I have said. Like I said before, name calling and shit talking doesn't hurt me at all. However, when that is the full value of what you post, and there is no other substance other than saying I am wrong and you are right, and that its just because thats what you think, then I find your posts pathetic. Good job continually trying to get a rise out of me, I'll continue to shoot down your drivel and then let you rant back at me.

So I just had this thought:

With this OP's setup essentially this is like FFXI w/o a sub job, w/ merits, and in place of a sub job every class has the option of 2 (maybe more) exclusive main jobs (which is essentially restricting every class to choosing between 2 exclusive sub jobs). As for the restricting everything to rank 20 actions or less this essentially makes any DPS actions pointless at Rank 50 by the the high rank DPS actions and making only curing/buffs useful which everyone would still have the same curing/buffing going on.

Please clarify if I'm wrong or if there is a fix to this.

Now I'm heavily leaning to this thread's OP.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

Now the difference here is that instead of putting a cap on actions from other classes there is still a sandbox like now, but essentially giving everyone a role thus creating uniqueness just like this idea does. Another difference is that instead of essentially having only 2 "sub jobs" to choose from you have any sub job to choose from. This forces roles in the same way (it gives you new EXCLUSIVE actions/traits/whatever), but the key effect here is you have more overall options.

Now the BIG POINT I got form this new OP that Kuro didn't include is to reduce the effect of skills (correct me if I'm wrong I haven't read every post there are too many pages). Which can be done for either idea. The example given in the Title Setup was to restrict Cure (from CON) at 100% as WHM, 75% as PLD, and 50% on any other Title. This fixes my previous problem (I think) of Curing (Lv. 20 restriction would be Cure II) from being used on every single class, or at least not as effectively perhaps even outweighing the use of it at Rank 50. Now what wouldn't change and would even make worse if implemented if DPS skills. Rank 35-50 DPS skills would by far outweigh any 1-20 Rank DPS skills and adding a penalty to this of let's say -50% there wouldn't even be a chance of using this so I think the rank restriction is flawed in this sense. Yet this does make a lot of actions exclusive. The only thing I can propose here is to have two classes to pull any action from in order to fix this and maybe even specializing in 1 advancement class for each class through a talent tree.

So with the Title System you can still equip every skill and it gives much more than 2 advancements to go into, it gives all advancements to go into which you can only choose 1. Now the Title System didn't mention a talent tree, but it could be added to it.

The key restriction to the Title System is heavily restricting every action individually based on your title/class which allows up to all rank 50 actions to be effectively "sandboxed" IMO. This can be implemented on either idea, but I prefer Title System here since you would get many more options from any title as opposed to very limited specializations (so I'd advise Rank 20 restrictions with 2 classes for a real proposal).

If you agree with my thoughts then we should decide whether Titles + Class or 2 Classes + rank 20 restrictions (w/ or w/o talent trees for either) is the better option.
If not please make a counter argument.

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

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I thought you were for this proposal?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

I simply pinned both proposals together stating that I think the Title System is better and that if Kuro's proposal can be better then it needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

I thought you were for this proposal?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

I simply pinned both proposals together stating that I think the Title System is better and that if Kuro's proposal can be better then it needs to be addressed.

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I wasn't replying to you Omega :P

Found this on another page and thought it'd be a good read for some out there;


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Zantetsuken
(neat idea person!)



In going over the issues with the class distinctions as they currently are, I began to look back at older Final Fantasy games and how they addressed the job/class system in a fun and enjoyable way. I remember that one of my favorites was the system in Final Fantasy Tactics, mainly the War of the Lions. The system was exciting and engaging because it provided the player with constant goals to pursue in unlocking and developing new classes.

The real key with the Final Fantasy Tactics job growth system is the fact that each job had a set of prerequisites that you needed to fulfill before you could open it up (with the exception of the squire and chemist)

I think this system would be a fantastic fit for FFXIV, and it would require a few changes to the current system, largely in the reassignment of abilities in order to maximize the uniqueness of the classes

So to start with, lets take a look at the Disciples of War:

Disciples of War:

* Spear/Lance - Dragoon (Lancer)
* Great Axe - Warrior (Marauder)
* 1h Sword and Shield - Soldier (Gladiator)
* Bow - Archer
* Hand to Hand - Monk (Pugilist)
* Dagger - Thief


First off, I would suggest some name changes and tweaks to really make each job unique. Part of this would be removing or severely limiting the healing abilities from many of these jobs and give them a tight focus on their core roles. One of the major problems with the current system is that every class can do pretty much everything, while this is nice for solo play, it makes group play very simple and dull.

The Soldier needs to be a tank and a damned good one. His raw melee ability should be average at best, but he needs to survive like no other. Soldiers need have abilities which allow him to shrug off damage for short bursts of time (5-10 sec) as well as the ability to provoke multiple enemies in a radius or cone and TP attacks that generate hate as well.

The Dragoon should specialize in hard hitting jump attacks and multi-hit skewering abilities, Additionally, Dragoon changes should also build on the current 'lancet' style attacks (like Speed Surge) that leach small amounts of TP, HP, MP etc.. from mobs and share it with the party.

Archers should have skills that focus on crowd control. Their skills should allow group binding, and concentrated volleys for picking off specific targets like spell casters and other ranged attackers.

Monks should be single-target damage dealers with evasive tanking abilities and stunning moves. The endgame spiritual attacks of the Monk should be able to penetrate very high armor and do consistent amounts of damage.

Warriors should change modes while attacking.. switch between weaker AOE attacks that destroy crowds of mobs, or stronger hits that have disabling side-effects which cripple TP, Armor, Strength or Magic Power. The Warrior needs to get stronger as he takes damage.

Thief would be the new class. With rapid-striking blade attacks, this class would specialize in melee DoT skills like 'bleed'. A thief should also have detection skills that reveal and exploit weaknesses in mobs, dealing extra damage to those that are inflicted with enfeebling effects (see current victimize skill for Pugalist)

Disciples of Magic:

* Elemental Magic (Elemental Wands) - Black Mage
* Enhancing/Restoring Magic (Radicals)- Conjurer
* Enfeebling/Draining Magic (Jeweled Wand)- Arcanist (Thaumaturge)
* Healing/Curing Magic (Crook)- White Mage
* Musician (Flute)- Bard

The Disciples of Magic roster is pretty weak as it is. I would break both the Conjurer and Thaumaturge into four separate classes and then I would add a fifth, the Bard.

First is the Black Mage. yep the classic FF job we all know and love. From Blizzard to Thundaja VI, and access elemental weakening spells like Shock, Rasp and Drown, this class should be the most damaging and fragile class in the game.

The Conjurer (or Green Mage in FFXII) fulfills the roll of the buffer. Whether he is casting defensive spells like enThunder, Ice Spikes, barBlizzard, Stoneskin, Faith, Blink, Protect, Shell and Bravery, or DoT spells like Poison, Toxify, Bio and Virus This guy is helping the rest of the group win the attrition war. One of the best jobs to party with, and one of the hardest to solo with.

The Arcanist (also from FFXII) is an Enfeebler specializing in Umbral magic. With Drain, Aspir, Sleep, Bind, Paralyze, Silence, Sap, Blind, Gravity, Confuse, and Absorb as well as incremental magic such as Scourge, he can keep the enemy in a weakened state while the group focuses on the kill. Sacrifice allows him to do some limited healing as well.

The role of the White Mage is curing, healing and restoring. Abilities include not only healing spells like Cure, Regen, Blind-na, Refresh, Erase, and Raise, but also offensive Astral Magic like Dia, Banish and Holy.

The Bard is the new Class. Bards are the jack of all trades, and the master of crowd-control. The job of a bard is to encourage and empower the group while weakening, damaging or sleeping monsters with their songs. This class should play almost exactly like its role in FFXI.

Disciples of the Hand:

* Alchemy - Alchemist
* Leatherworking - Tanner
* Clothcrafting - Weaver
* Metalworking - Blacksmith
* Cooking - Culinarian
* Jeweler - Goldsmith
* Woodworking - Carpenter


I find the crafting jobs to be fantastic as they are now. Perhaps the process of crafting itself could be slightly tweaked, but I think this is the bright spot in FFXIV.

Disciples of the Land:

* Fishing - Fisher
* Harvesting - Botanist
* Mining - Miner
* Husbandry - Shepherd


The addition of the Shepherd Class would be quite nice. The chocobo raising in FFXI was quite fun and if that concept is built upon further it would make a great addition to the Disciples of the Land.

So after all those changes, what next? Well, those changes above allow for Advanced Classes in the style of Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions. You raise specific beginner classes to a certain level to unlock advanced classes. For instance, if you wanted to unlock the Sage Class, you might need Black Mage at level 50 with Conjurer and Arcanist both at level 30. Below are some possibilities for advanced Classes using the changes above:

* [Soldier + White Mage + Black Mage] = Red Mage (Rapier & Shield)
* [Alchemist + Archer] = Musketeer (Guns & Grenades)
* [Archer + Thief] = Sniper (Crossbow)
* [Warrior + Soldier] = Berzerker (Double 1H Axes)
* [Warrior + Arcanist] = Dark Knight (Battle Scythe or Short Spear)
* [Soldier + White Mage] = Paladin (Long Sword and Shield or Greatsword)
* [Thief + Monk] = Ninja (Katana & Darts)
* [Dragoon + Archer] = Samurai (Great Katana)
* [Musketeer + Thief] = Gambler (Cards & Dice)
* [Thief + Bard] = Dancer (Twin Knives)
* [White Mage + Conjurer + Monk] = Devout (Crosier)
* [Black Mage + Arcanist + Conjurer] = Sage (Spell Book)
* [Shepherd + Bard + Berserker] = Beastmaster (Whip)
* [Arcanist + Beastmaster] = Blue Mage (Tulwar)
* [Arcanist + Conjurer] = Time Mage (Chime Staff)
* [Black Mage + Botanist + Miner] = Geomancer (Bell)
* [Sage + Devout + Time Mage + Geomancer] = Summoner (Evoking Staff)


I welcome all thoughts on this. If you have any comments, please leave them below. I really hope the FFXIV development team consider some of these ideas, and I believe they would give the game opportunity for long-term growth as well as considerable enjoyment for the players.

NOTE_01: Keep in mind that the above advancement prerequisites are just possibilities given changes to the current system. Please do not become too fixated on whether X or Y class should be required to obtain Z advanced Class. It is merely a suggestion of what could be done with the system.

NOTE_02: This suggested change to the system is intended to retain the core premise of the Armory system. That is, a class is determined by the weapon it wields. The FFXIV development team has no plans to change this concept, therefore the system I propose is intended to supplement that vision for the game.

NOTE_03: The current assignment of skills and abilities allows for too much customization, which leads to builds being far to similar. To counter this, skills outside the current class should carry a higher cost in addition to reduced effectiveness. However, advanced classes could grant reduced costs for assigning skills from classes that served as prerequisites.
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This is from a forum topic he started here, it's just a bit hidden.
(Hope you don't mind me reposting it...but it's a great idea imo!)

~Meenk

How did Thaumaturge sudden turn into Arcanist when they are two separate magic classes? The problem that I see with this and turning dagger into Thief is there is already a great deal or lore implemented in the world revolving around Arcanist. More so that than the thieves. Which don't exist what so ever. So that will be a great deal of planning.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

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This right here is proof that you have not read the OP. Please just leave.

To the posts above. Keep it out of my thread.

Zan's proposal is essentially Kuro's proposal w/o a talent tree, but instead of specializing in 1 advanced class instead having the option to go into 2. It also touches on the Title Proposal of having greater penalties for cross class actions. It also introduces exclusives for these advanced classes and forces roles effectively, but ultimately it GREATLY reduces the amount of customization you can incorporate in you character instead of adding to customization which not only does Kuro's idea implement, but so does the Title System even more so. I believe Zan's proposal is the weakest of all 3.

All 3 proposal's define roles, create exclusives, limit actions in a specific way. The main differences is the customization and how things are limited and I believe the Title System is more effective in both.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

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Now the BIG POINT I got form this new OP that Kuro didn't include is to reduce the effect of skills (correct me if I'm wrong I haven't read every post there are too many pages). Which can be done for either idea. The example given in the Title Setup was to restrict Cure (from CON) at 100% as WHM, 75% as PLD, and 50% on any other Title. This fixes my previous problem (I think) of Curing (Lv. 20 restriction would be Cure II) from being used on every single class, or at least not as effectively perhaps even outweighing the use of it at Rank 50. Now what wouldn't change and would even make worse if implemented if DPS skills. Rank 35-50 DPS skills would by far outweigh any 1-20 Rank DPS skills and adding a penalty to this of let's say -50% there wouldn't even be a chance of using this so I think the rank restriction is flawed in this sense. Yet this does make a lot of actions exclusive. The only thing I can propose here is to have two classes to pull any action from in order to fix this and maybe even specializing in 1 advancement class for each class through a talent tree.

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Of course I didn't mention that. Thats a given and doesn't need to be pointed out. No way around it.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Of course I didn't mention that. Thats a given and doesn't need to be pointed out. No way around it.

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But I believe the Title System can get around this.

No they can't. There are cross-class limitations now, they're just really weak. There is NO getting around it. In order to go forward from here they need to nerf cross-class usage more.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

No they can't. There are cross-class limitations now, they're just really weak. There is NO getting around it. In order to go forward from here they need to nerf cross-class usage more.

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I will gladly step down from my position if you can give a logical explanation detailing the flaws in the way the setup of Title System combined with the heavy penalties to cross class actions that vary greatly from each class. I'm not trying to bash your proposal and I commend your thoughts and ideas, but I am simply trying to find the absolute best path for FFXIV. If it can become better why not allow it.

I've seen 3 pretty good ideas concerning the Job/Class system and I would like to make a suggestion. Instead of being at war with each other about which is best, why not combine certain aspects of all 3?

The Job/Class system could start to be like Zantetsuken's overall idea to a certain extent. FFXIV should change the spells/abilities around on the jobs so that they aren't mixed around so much. (Example: Make CON have BLM spells and THM have WHM spells). Then change the names of the classes to match previous FF titles and the ability to unlock advanced classes by ranking up a variety of other classes. I also like Zante's idea of DoH jobs having an effect on unlocking certain DoW or DoM classes.

The ability to change your class by simply changing weapons still stays. Along with being able to mix/match the abilties/spells you learn from the different classes on to the class you're currently playing as. But....it has limitations based upon Carpe's Two Tier job/class idea. Something I'd like to add is there would also be a rank/level restriction on setting spells. Meaning you can't equip Cure 3 on a rank/level 1 class. Optimal rank thats currently in the game could be the minimum level you have to be to use/equip it.

Now combine Carpe's Title/Weapon system with Kuro's Talent Tree system but instead of making Kuro's "Talent Tree" branch off, like when he gave an example of a Gladiator branching off into being a Paladin or Dark Knight where you choose abilties, etc. from the grid you choose to branch off too....don't have it branch off at all. Each player could have "Job Ability Points" that he/she acquires per Carpe's Job/Class system idea. There could be several different grids, kind of like http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.c...ighttalent.jpg , where the player chooses which abilties and such he wants to unlock based upon how he wants to play his class. Not going to be able to max out all grids but could reallocate points if you changed your mind and wanted to play that favorite job of yours a different way. EDIT: Actually, maybe it would be best to be able to max out each grid but by putting a good amount of time in acquiring "Job Points". The Grids could be called "Bow Ranger", "Gun Ranger", "Crossbow Ranger"etc. for 1 class and "Sword Dragoon", "Lance Dragoon", "Spear Dragoon" for the other. Examples of what Carpe mentioned and I added 1 to each.

I probably didn't do a very good of trying to explain where I'm coming from and to fully understand one would probably have to do a lot of reading from Kuro's, Carpe's, and Zantetsuken's job/class system.

I call it the Joe's-Zante's-Kuro's-Carpe's Job/Class System! lol

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

No they can't. There are cross-class limitations now, they're just really weak. There is NO getting around it. In order to go forward from here they need to nerf cross-class usage more.

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If by cross-class limitations you mean the ability to bring spells / actions from other classes over to another I agree with you. There needs to be some level of uniqueness about the class and or its role. There needs to be a little bit of definition as well. Otherwise we run into problems like we are having now where people want to play more defined roles so they are not forced to play a style they have a bad taste for. I mean I LOVE healing, I hate when I get into a group and there are already like 1 con and 1 thm. That usually means I end up dd'ing or being bored as crap bec the other two classes can heal as well.

I wish they would do something about this issue.

All these ideas/fixes will resolve this issue.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

This right here is proof that you have not read the OP. Please just leave.

To the posts above. Keep it out of my thread.

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Seriously...

You bring a good idea, some have brought others, what's the problem in comparing them one aside the other?

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The Job/Class system could start to be like Zantetsuken's overall idea to a certain extent. FFXIV should change the spells/abilities around on the jobs so that they aren't mixed around so much. (Example: Make CON have BLM spells and THM have WHM spells). Then change the names of the classes to match previous FF titles and the ability to unlock advanced classes by ranking up a variety of other classes. I also like Zante's idea of DoH jobs having an effect on unlocking certain DoW or DoM classes.

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Because the lore is already set on thos classes and redoing the lore would be more trouble than it's worth to rename current classes to fit the "classic" classes.

i find it funny that both the thm and pug are collectors. pugs beat people up for money and the thm is a hitman killing by contract.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Because the lore is already set on thos classes and redoing the lore would be more trouble than it's worth to rename current classes to fit the "classic" classes.

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You can still keep the lore that is already set with the classes.

I'm not saying change THM to the White Mage name. That class can be a different name, I'm just saying change the spells and abilties around so that a certain classes spells/abilties aren't so much of a mix & match.

OP: excellent.
If they do something like this, I'll finally have a goal worth logging in for.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

Seriously...

You bring a good idea, some have brought others, what's the problem in comparing them one aside the other?

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From this post:

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

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There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shazaam

There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

---

Still curious why we need class names to define playstyle, when you explain that in a form other than that FFXi or FF (insert number here) did so, we can talk. Thanks.


-Have fun!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Still curious why we need class names to define playstyle, when you explain that in a form other than that FFXi or FF (insert number here) did so, we can talk. Thanks.


-Have fun!

---

It's not just about class names. Those are just flavor to add the 'FF feel' and potentially draw back in players that quit the game over a frustration of it being a generic MMO as opposed to FF.

The true draw of the 'advanced classes' is to specialize roles. So you can specialize in being a tank, a controller, a healer, a magic nuker, a ranged DD, a melee DD, a buffer... etc.

That is why we need to define playstyle. The class names are just a way to do it, and one that I think just about every FFXIV player present or future would be behind. Not to mention the history and lore behind something as simple as the name 'Red Mage' or 'Dragoon'.

If I need to explain without using past FF games, then the FF MMO could just as well be called Eorzean Adventures. Love it or hate it, the FF name brings in players who want to experience the FF mythos online.

Most chose (and will choose) the game to play a Final Fantasy, not to play a random MMO offering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shazaam

It's not just about class names. Those are just flavor to add the 'FF feel' and potentially draw back in players that quit the game over a frustration of it being a generic MMO as opposed to FF.

The true draw of the 'advanced classes' is to specialize roles. So you can specialize in being a tank, a controller, a healer, a magic nuker, a ranged DD, a melee DD, a buffer... etc.

That is why we need to define playstyle. The class names are just a way to do it, and one that I think just about every FFXIV player present or future would be behind. Not to mention the history and lore behind something as simple as the name 'Red Mage' or 'Dragoon'.

If I need to explain without using past FF games, then the FF MMO could just as well be called Eorzean Adventures. Love it or hate it, the FF name brings in players who want to experience the FF mythos online.

Most chose (and will choose) the game to play a Final Fantasy, not to play a random MMO offering.

---

You are essentially saying people feel they do not have a role if they so choose to designate themselves to do something unconvential correct?


What I'm saying is you are playing with people who won't play with a person who specifies in debuffs, because its not as good as a 3rd guy who can spam cure?

If that is true, then isn't the problem the abilities and not the system?

Thanks!

-have Fun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

You are essentially saying people feel they do not have a role if they so choose to designate themselves to do something unconvential correct?

---

Umm... How I mine for fish?

Thanks!

-have Fun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shazaam

Umm... How I mine for fish?

Thanks!

-have Fun

---

Are you confused by what i say? My question is:

Are you saying people are confused because they can use abilities to define who they are rather than a class they pick at start select?


Futhermore, if you feel so, you would want them to pick that class after X levels rather than at start?

What do you want? Character indivudality or classes you level.

I'll be more simple.

Pick a class, level it, be the class you choose to level at 30 25, 10, or 1.

or

choose your class as you grow as a character.


Thanks!

- Have fun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Are you confused by what i say?

---

Very much so. These are the English forums right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shazaam

Very much so. These are the English forums right?

---

They are, and I'm sorry if I confuse you. Could you expand upon what is confusing you so i would better explain?

Thanks!

-have fun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

They are, and I'm sorry if I confuse you. Could you expand upon what is confusing you so i would better explain?

Thanks!

-have fun

---

It's the syntax and grammar. It is almost like you are following an idea with the supposition that I know what is going on inside your head.

Like a mathematical equation, please show your work. I really have no clue as to what you are trying to say in the last few posts. Re-read them as if you were reading them for the first time, and clarify please.

Edit:

Read the OP, and type something legible next time. I'm going to do something more productive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shazaam

It's the syntax and grammar. It is almost like you are following an idea with the supposition that I know what is going on inside your head.

Like a mathematical equation, please show your work. I really have no clue as to what you are trying to say in the last few posts. Re-read them as if you were reading them for the first time, and clarify please.

---

Well maybe I'm so stupid, sorry we can't get along, would you care to refute a point or masturbate talking about grammar? confused what your problem is.


Thanks!


-Have fun!

I'll be super simpel for you, I question why you need defined classes and are incapable of fulfilled the needed roles of society on your own, only by the the class chosen at start up, if that doesn't mate sense I'll be flat out.

Are you so incapable of personal choice that you cannot feel like an individual without being a specific class? Can you not fulfill a role if you are not forced to? What forces you to be a white mage other than nostalgia? Why, if I choose to be a healer can I not be one now? Becaause i can... Just want to know thanks, jealous you don't get preferrential spots in a team or something?

Thanks!

-Have Fun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shazaam

From this post:



There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

---

I hear you. My point was more about "to the others posts, this does not belong in my thread", the others' posts being comparisons with other suggestions (and the notion of owning a thread is silly in istself...)

Anyway I know I started it but no point in further arguing about this. I like the OP's proposition a lot, like some others' propositions too. And I find that most of times they are not exclusive, i-e they can be meshed together. So comparing several ideas one with the other is a good thing, if it's done right of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Well maybe I'm so stupid, sorry we can't get along, would you care to refute a point or masturbate talking about grammar? confused what your problem is.


Thanks!


-Have fun!

I'll be super simpel for you, I question why you need defined classes and are incapable of fulfilled the needed roles of society on your own, only by the the class chosen at start up, if that doesn't mate sense I'll be flat out.

Are you so incapable of personal choice that you cannot feel like an individual without being a specific class? Can you not fulfill a role if you are not forced to? What forces you to be a white mage other than nostalgia? Why, if I choose to be a healer can I not be one now? Becaause i can... Just want to know thanks, jealous you don't get preferrential spots in a team or something?

Thanks!

-Have Fun

---

We've established that lack of set roles and class definition IS the problem with our current classes (in OP those are major - FF names are minor issues). Sure you can find a few CONs or THMs to heal but lemme know if you find one that doesn't get pigeonholed into it and gets to nuke. Not a single one. Thats a problem with 1. the class, 2. the abilities. If that CON were able to specialize into a stronger nuke oriented CON (which I'm calling a BLM for FF's sake and because they PLAN to introduce it regardless) they would be able to use their nukes because they are stronger than they are now and they have a clearly defined role. CONs that nuke are damage dealers - theres no way to spin that and no one will make them heal when they don't want to. Most of my friends that quit played BLM in XI and planned to do something similar here but they ran into this giant problem.

The above happens with many classes. No one knows what they're doing except casters that are healers by default and theres no way around that.

I don't see whats so hard to understand about that.

@northernsky It wasn't really to that comparison post but Cairdaes shameless plugging of an idea he supports. I don't jump in his thread and route viewers this way, I would appreciate it if he doesn't do it here. I thought we agreed to disagree.

Also I snapped a bit I suppose, because I made things VERY clear in the OP and yet I've sat through 45+ pages of questions/comments that could've been avoided by understanding what was in the OP.

Read it, understand it, then comment, make suggestions, or ask questions.. otherwise you are being detrimental to the process.

Ok so after rereading the initial posts, edits, and several pages, I have a suggestion/concern. With this system, a player could master all the abilities/skills/traits from a job without even playing it for a minute? For example, a current rank 50 gladiator would have access to all the DRK skills after completing their respective quest?

Forgive me if it has been brought up before, but I would suggest that you need to play a specific role/job (say DRK) to earn points in this particular job. I'm all for allocation of points through a path and reallocation of points within that path, but I think 2 different jobs should have completely independent paths. I think I would prefer earning DRK points separately from PLD points and not be able to interchange the said points.

As the OP said one of the main reason I have liked XI so much is that you can do everything with a single char. Personally, character progression is my biggest incentive to play the game, so I would like to feel like every ability that I use and that defines my playstyle have been earned and mastered.

This is an example of how I could see two propositions mesh together, i-e the title system that is on top of your class and the talent-tree mechanic that defines of how you progress in that said title/job.