Mao has question for everyones about DDR-style boss fights.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

Well, when I think about ARR fights, random isn't the word I would use. Bosses do follow a chain of events if you look hard enough.

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But that's the thing, especially ARR bosses follow a VERY strict script. You don't even get pattern variations. The only source of variance is the random targeting of mechanics. When we did the Blue Mage achievements, our tank would just count the auto attacks to know when he had to mitigate, that's how fixed fights are.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

Titan EX is a good example of this. If you played it enough, you might be able to get a feeling of exactly when he'll use a TB, landslides/puddles, tumults, gaols, etc. But sometimes the fight can get chaotic if phase change thresholds are hit in awkward times.

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Yes, 2nd tankbuster comes 21 seconds after the first, 3rd after another 17 seconds. for the loop after the 1st jump. The reason these fights can be approached in a more non-organized manner, is because it's not important to properly map all the mechanics out, since they can be survived thanks to echo, potency and ilvl power creep. In fights where it still matters, groups will layout and adhere to mitigation plans.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

For example, phase 2 usually ends after he drops bombs on 80% of the stage and does a landslide. But, if for whatever reason the party still hasn't hit the transition %HP, he'll repeat all of phase 2 again, starting with gaols. And if you're party was juuust close to the transition %HP that he'll do gaols and then jump up for the phase change, it can get hectic. I think Ramuh EX is much more notorious for how chaotic phase changes can get.

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The thing is, if you prefer for boss fights to have subphases with % based triggers, that's a totally valid opinion to have. And I commend you for actually taking the time to explain this here, which is more than can be said for many of the other "just want it more random" posters here. The thing is though, that such a fight design is not without consequences. Certain phase transition combinations can leave the players in potentially unwinnable situations, despite having made no mistake and dealt exceptional damage. And such experiences can be incredibly frustrating. The thing is, that players interacting with phases is not something that really went away, it's a staple in the design of ultimate fights. Even the newly released Extreme trial has groups with good dps use the add phase to stockpile resources for higher burst after the transition.

But even then, the question is, how exactly should the subphases be designed? With, or without a script? You mentioned the "unpredictability" of Ifrit tankbusters, but they aren't random at all. It's just that 2nd and 3rd features a back to back breath attack, so you get 2 stacks in short succession. So how random should the phases then be? Should it be possible for a boss to just stand there and spam their raid wide? Or their tankbusters? Or start to swim for 10 minutes like Plesioth, or fly in the air for 3 hours like Rathalos? Because depending on the amount of randomness you want, you will also increase the pattern space of the boss. Which carries the risk of unwinnable patterns, where players to everything right, and still lose.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

it's overall very hard to stick everything to a specific timeline. For me, anyways. It feels more like everyone has a job to do and less like everyone has a spot to stand on in specific times.

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There is fixed timeline though. And it's important that this fact is acknowledged in these discussion, lest we end up with completely false statements like "the Nael phase is truly random", which are unhelpful in every way.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I think it's clear we add variety by having less DDR and more other stuff

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Not really, actually. DDR is simply "see cue, react appropriately." No one's actually given an example of a mechanic that doesn't boil down to that. See seed on bad tile, move seed to good tile. See self on fire, light furniture on fire. See cue, react appropriately. DDR.

I specifically said "variety of actions" in an effort to be more precise and clear.

Although, to point out how even that isn't as obvious as I might like it to be, here's food for thought: Lighting the furniture on fire is exactly the same action you'd take -- here, meaning movement -- if everyone had a spread marker and there's a massive ground AoE that covers all the ground except the areas immediately around the furniture. It's not all that different from ye olde "spread and dodge AoE" mechanic, the sort of alleged-DDR everyone seems to find so distasteful.

But we give the furniture fires a pass, because it makes sense for a reclusive mage to summon a fire demon thingy to their defense, and of course a fire demon is going to light things on fire, including us, and it's a grand palace, so of course there's furniture around to torch. Thematically, visually, all the pieces just fit together, distracting us from the fact the mechanic is little more than, "run away from party and towards a safe spot."

The real feature that sets that mechanic apart, and it has nothing to do with DDR by any definition, is the fact the players have the agency to create their own fail state, by getting furniture torched too early in previous mechanics. That's something we don't see a whole lot of, the resolution of one mechanic affecting how a later mechanic can be resolved.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Yeah, I heard that before with regards to the WoW Vanilla nostalgia. Was very entertaining to see how twisted and warped people's perception of the raiding reality was of that content, with buffs lasting mere 5 minutes, damage dealers like mages not actually participating in many fights by doing damage but rather constantly decursing everyone, paladins staying out of combat perpetually just to rezz people, 3 copies of the same spell of various spell levels on the hot bar because higher spell levels have worse damage / mana ratio of base damage but same spell damage scaling, many classes having one viable specc for raiding if they were lucky.

So yeah, you can try to convince yourself however much you want of your own perception of how this game was "back in the day". The validity of your assessments is certainly not boosted by your crass inability to correctly analyze the workings of this game as it currently is, most of your posts in terms of fight design being nothing but vague sound bites that romanticize the version of the game that you had the first contact with. A pattern all too common, really.

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Yes, it makes a lot more sense calling out the sanity of someone recounting their experience than questioning one's own especially when one doesn't even have a point of comparison for not having played the actual game back then.
WoW isn't XIV. Your experience with WoW is your own and far from me from actually calling you delusional for just stating it. I'd ask the same courtesy in return.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Isn't that the point of games? To have fun and enjoy the time? When you buy a new video game, do you buy the ones you expect to have the least fun playing? Because otherwise, it's hard to explain the constant whining that has been going on for years from certain members of this community. This is a subscription base game, every month you have to for over money just to be able to log in. Money you could have spent to do activities that .. you know, you actually enjoy. Instead, whining. Constant, incessant whining. About every single aspect of the game. It's fine to not like playing this game, it's fine to not like the direction it is going. But at some point, you do have to take responsibility for your own life choices. Because if you don't, no one else will.

I mean, do you know any sports or hobby forum full of people that whine as much as you and others here do, constantly trash talking the part of the player base that enjoys their time just to not face the fact that they have lost all control of their life? Of course not, it would be completely mental to whine in a badminton forum about playing badminton, since no one is forced to play badminton. Just go do something that is more enjoyable to you.

But alas, it will never come, will it? If there is one thing SE can count on, it's the non-stop whiners in this forum to never stop buying new expansions and subscriptions. They could introduce a forum pass for 50 bucks, and ya'll would happily pay it just to whine :>
This thread alone feature some "This was the last straw, I quit" posters that are back again.

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https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/...Mjpg_QL85_.jpg

If I had to count the amount of times someone said this and I had to tell them I'd have left long ago silently already if I had nothing left for me that I like in the game, I'd be a lot richer as a result.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yes, it makes a lot more sense calling out the sanity of someone recounting their experience than questioning one's own especially when one doesn't even have a point of comparison for not having played the actual game back then.

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This is the guy who wants to talk about UCOB when they haven't cleared any Ultimate, so it's on brand really. Watch as he has another meltdown:

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yes, it makes a lot more sense calling out the sanity of someone recounting their experience than questioning one's own especially when one doesn't even have a point of comparison for not having played the actual game back then.
WoW isn't XIV. Your experience with WoW is your own and far from me from actually calling you delusional for just stating it. I'd ask the same courtesy in return.

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Experience, especially years later, and reality, can be quite far apart though. Nothing symbolizes this disconnect more than the "Nael phase is truly random" sound bite of our resident forum clown. It's possible to clear UCoB thinking that, but it doesn't make it true. It simply means that the individual hasn't properly understood what is actually going on. No amount of "experience" and retconning will change this. The WoW example is pretty spot on, because since it was the very first MMO for many people, who were a lot younger and more impressionable, the perception it left was a lot different than the game itself. Because judging by modern standards, WoW Vanilla was pretty clunky, janky, unbalanced and simplistic. We have the same kind of nostalgia in this thread. "Titan / Ifrit felt more unpredictable". Well yeah, when one never learns the boss pattern properly, it will feel like that. One can get the same experience in all the new fights as well, by not bothering to learn them in the first place. Suddenly, everything will feel very random, even the Nael phase.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If I had to count the amount of times someone said this and I had to tell them I'd have left long ago silently already if I had nothing left for me that I like in the game, I'd be a lot richer as a result.

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And you never question why you constantly get this feedback, do you? You never take a moment of your time to reflect on why exactly you spend so much time slagging on this game, being nostalgic for a version of this game that likely never existed, do you? You trashtalk ShB+ players like they are some kind of unwashed and completely new to the game masses, when ShB was basically the half way point of this game's existence. Yes, you read that right. ShB was released roughly 6 years after ARR, and we are now roughly 6 years after ShB release. These players have built a significant part of this community, and left a pretty impressive mark in those years. Maybe YOU can start to show some courtesy, instead of being perpetually bitter on this forum.

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Originally Posted by LoganMccree

This is the guy who wants to talk about UCOB when they haven't cleared any Ultimate

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:D

Remember kids, do well in school, so you don't end up high on your own clownium.

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I thought the v's would just be a dumb joke and someone else would comment first but I cannot believe he just walked right into it.

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Originally Posted by LoganMccree

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I thought the v's would just be a dumb joke and someone else would comment first but I cannot believe he just walked right into it.

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You get your own personal Adoring Fan lmao
Except in this case it's more like a chihuahua who bites your ankle I suppose

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Lighting the furniture on fire is exactly the same action you'd take -- here, meaning movement -- if everyone had a spread marker and there's a massive ground AoE that covers all the ground except the areas immediately around the furniture. It's not all that different from ye olde "spread and dodge AoE" mechanic, the sort of alleged-DDR everyone seems to find so distasteful.

But we give the furniture fires a pass, because it makes sense for a reclusive mage to summon a fire demon thingy to their defense, and of course a fire demon is going to light things on fire, including us, and it's a grand palace, so of course there's furniture around to torch. Thematically, visually, all the pieces just fit together, distracting us from the fact the mechanic is little more than, "run away from party and towards a safe spot."

The real feature that sets that mechanic apart, and it has nothing to do with DDR by any definition, is the fact the players have the agency to create their own fail state, by getting furniture torched too early in previous mechanics. That's something we don't see a whole lot of, the resolution of one mechanic affecting how a later mechanic can be resolved.

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Any fight is going to involve applying damage to the boss, along with motion, yes.

The issue I and others in this thread have is that in detail that has involved moving faster to ever smaller safe spots, frequently with stationary bosses.

In fights in which the boss can be moved, we're already entering a more interesting design space. Significant potential for positionals which for some reason are getting stripped from the game.

You make a great point that the furniture in the Grand Cosmos is basically a proxy for a spread, but again in detail it's more subtle (and simply more amusing) than avoiding overlapping glowing circles.

Take the morbol fruit in Aurum Vale. At some point in the fight, eating fruit requires movement, but when and how has a broad range of possibilities. I remember a run years ago with an undergeared tank who was making the boss... interesting. In the fracas the healer and I arrived at the same fruit at the same time. Since the healer was more important than me at this point, I bolted for another batch of fruit, being pretty sure I was going to die. I did, but the healer saved the run.

Positioning so that an attack doesn't destroy a rock you'll need to hide behind in 30s is more interesting than running to a safe spot, particularly if there are multiple rocks. It provides multiple choices in how one resolves the mechanic, beyond making sure we hit the right (x,y) as a function of t. A bit of RNG in the order of mechanics can make fights reactive instead of a scripted memory test.

It might be less satisfying to twitchy adrenalin junkies. But don't they have enough to do already?

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Experience, especially years later, and reality, can be quite far apart though. Nothing symbolizes this disconnect more than the "Nael phase is truly random" sound bite of our resident forum clown. It's possible to clear UCoB thinking that, but it doesn't make it true. It simply means that the individual hasn't properly understood what is actually going on. No amount of "experience" and retconning will change this. The WoW example is pretty spot on, because since it was the very first MMO for many people, who were a lot younger and more impressionable, the perception it left was a lot different than the game itself. Because judging by modern standards, WoW Vanilla was pretty clunky, janky, unbalanced and simplistic. We have the same kind of nostalgia in this thread. "Titan / Ifrit felt more unpredictable". Well yeah, when one never learns the boss pattern properly, it will feel like that. One can get the same experience in all the new fights as well, by not bothering to learn them in the first place. Suddenly, everything will feel very random, even the Nael phase.

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I know that person has been living rent free in your head for a while now, but I hardly see what that Nael obsession has to even do with me or what I said earlier.
You can deflect all you want on whatever you find clunky, I also have (and had) my gripes about the XIV clunk of HW/ARR, and I could name you many things I'd not want back in the game from back then. Which incidentally isn't what I'm praising from back then, but you wouldn't know the difference for, again, speaking about something you never played through, and are currently gesticulating wildly to try and find equivalents with other MMOs to die on your hill.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

And you never question why you constantly get this feedback, do you? You never take a moment of your time to reflect on why exactly you spend so much time slagging on this game, being nostalgic for a version of this game that likely never existed, do you? You trashtalk ShB+ players like they are some kind of unwashed and completely new to the game masses, when ShB was basically the half way point of this game's existence. Yes, you read that right. ShB was released roughly 6 years after ARR, and we are now roughly 6 years after ShB release. These players have built a significant part of this community, and left a pretty impressive mark in those years. Maybe YOU can start to show some courtesy, instead of being perpetually bitter on this forum.

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No, I "trashtalk" (you'll need to show me where I actually do trashtalk though) the geniuses that talk about things they never experienced for thesmelves, yet make unhinged opinions about anyway because they do have a hateboner for not having said experience. You can perfectly tell me that no, you don't like what the previous expansion system looks like it is to you, and I've always been perfectly fine with this, as this is a matter of tastes after all, which unfortunately just puts us at odds. But as soon as you start telling me that I'm delusional on something I have played through, experienced through, when you have not? That's unhinged, right there.