Chaotic Alliance Raid is a fun fight, but awful content

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

The main problem with the fight is the difficulty. How the dev teams doesn't understand something as simple as "content that's harder than a normal alliance raid but easier than extreme" is unbelievable.

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"Harder than an alliance raid but easier than extreme" is basically impossible.

The difference between normal mode content and extreme/savage/ultimate is personal responsibility. If it isn't possible for one person's mistake to wipe the raid, it's normal mode difficulty. If it's possible for one person's mistake to wipe the raid, it's extreme or higher. If you take something of alliance raid difficulty and flip on the personal responsibility switch, it immediately becomes extreme difficulty.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

"Harder than an alliance raid but easier than extreme" is basically impossible.

The difference between normal mode content and extreme/savage/ultimate is personal responsibility. If it isn't possible for one person's mistake to wipe the raid, it's normal mode difficulty. If it's possible for one person's mistake to wipe the raid, it's extreme or higher. If you take something of alliance raid difficulty and flip on the personal responsibility switch, it immediately becomes extreme difficulty.

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you see... i would agree but seeing E9S mechanics in this fight, makes it savage to me xD
specially with multiple 24man body checks, it isn't just one

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

"Harder than an alliance raid but easier than extreme" is basically impossible.

The difference between normal mode content and extreme/savage/ultimate is personal responsibility. If it isn't possible for one person's mistake to wipe the raid, it's normal mode difficulty. If it's possible for one person's mistake to wipe the raid, it's extreme or higher. If you take something of alliance raid difficulty and flip on the personal responsibility switch, it immediately becomes extreme difficulty.

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Um... no? "Extreme" in this context is not some perceived difficulty, it is a named tier in the system we have of difficulty scales, and we have had no shortage of Extremes where one player's mistake simply could not wipe a whole otherwise competent party except maybe first week. What you are doing seems to redefine Extreme as Savage?

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Originally Posted by Ravennes

you see... i would agree but seeing E9S mechanics in this fight, makes it savage to me xD
specially with multiple 24man body checks, it isn't just one

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Why? That's like saying savage fights are normal mode difficulty because they use the mechanics from normal mode as a starting points.

The line between extreme and savage is blurry. Most savage tier first floors are just extreme trials with 1 more difficult crux mechanic.

Clearing this fight in PF feels like pure luck in finding one that's more reclears looking for first time bonus than actual new people

I've progged the whole fight to the point I can be consistent each time, seem enrage multiple times but at the end of the day it doesn't matter how well any one individual knows the fight because all it can take is for one chaser to go wild and take out an entire platform and cause a wipe

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Why? That's like saying savage fights are normal mode difficulty because they use the mechanics from normal mode as a starting points.

The line between extreme and savage is blurry. Most savage tier first floors are just extreme trials with 1 more difficult crux mechanic.

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i think if we look at current savage tier, i agree it is easy
but lets take P5 to P12, P8s P10s and P12s were defenitly hard where body check after body check was added, with high concept and natural allignment or Pangenesis or Classical Concept
in an extreme i've yet to prog longer than 1 to 2 hours to clear it.

but this fight mech wise i'd say is close to savage, if not purely cause of speed, reading boss and telegraphed proximity baiting.
i'm just angry over the body checks in the fight, artificial making it difficult, even if i do it perfect, it takes 1 person to kill everyone
guess i'm just ranting... sorry

I think the problem we are going to see really soon, if not already, is that the entire community that is any good at high end content and routinely runs it, will be done with progging this. That means any prog group to join now still doing early stages is going to be mainly made up of people who are shy of raiding and have waited it out. That makes odds that anyone is going to learn and clear through those groups pretty dismal. If you have not already done your prog now, you are going to be stuck having to make it with groups of the least experienced / least capable of clearing but still working on it. Unless the raiding community who is already farming this feels like doing charity work keeping "raid schools" alive in PF where one or two people new to it at a time can be trained by 22 veterans, you're going to see that there is going to be a widening crevice in the CAR prog landscape where everyone either is already over, or probably never will be.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Why? That's like saying savage fights are normal mode difficulty because they use the mechanics from normal mode as a starting points.

The line between extreme and savage is blurry. Most savage tier first floors are just extreme trials with 1 more difficult crux mechanic.

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The most significant design difference between these two tiers has usually been that EX fights feature repeating mechanics after the mid point, with an added twist maybe (i.e. two previous mechanics now at the same time). While savage keeps escalating until the end, including unique mechanics that occur near the end of the fight and wipe the whole party if not done correctly. In that regard, the Chaotic Raid follows very much the EX design philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Ravennes

i think if we look at current savage tier, i agree it is easy
but lets take P5 to P12, P8s P10s and P12s were defenitly hard where body check after body check was added, with high concept and natural allignment or Pangenesis or Classical Concept
in an extreme i've yet to prog longer than 1 to 2 hours to clear it.

but this fight mech wise i'd say is close to savage, if not purely cause of speed, reading boss and telegraphed proximity baiting.
i'm just angry over the body checks in the fight, artificial making it difficult, even if i do it perfect, it takes 1 person to kill everyone
guess i'm just ranting... sorry

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The last 2 tiers of Panda were uniquely heavy on body checks. That isn't the norm. It's also fairly common for extreme trials to feature a mechanic into partner or light party stacks as a body check. Barbie and Golbez come to mind immediately.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

The most significant design difference between these two tiers has usually been that EX fights feature repeating mechanics after the mid point, with an added twist maybe (i.e. two previous mechanics now at the same time). While savage keeps escalating until the end, including unique mechanics that occur near the end of the fight and wipe the whole party if not done correctly. In that regard, the Chaotic Raid follows very much the EX design philosophy.

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That just isn't true. Most savage fights (especially the first 2 floors of a tier) also repeat from the halfway point.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

I WANT more people doing harder content because I genuinely think so many players are better at this game than they actually think.
They just don’t give themself a chance or are not given a chance by others.
That’s also why would also help me because then PF wouldn’t take as long to fill in the future.

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As a former savage raider who is now a parent, I am capable of doing the content, the problem is the time needed to learn the content. I can't afford the time it takes to stand up a PF group, learn the mechanics and then try to farm. I have at best, 1 hour of focus time to try to prog content. This is why I want more midcore content besides the casual content as we have a large amount of Savage content and hardly any other type of content.

I'm afraid that the triangle adventure zone they keep saying is coming may turn into another mixed bag where some of the content can be done by casuals to midcore but a savage component will eventually rear its head in there and block those players from progressing.

I'm starting to feel like I'm living the cliche, constantly being told that help is coming, just wait, hang on, its on the way... but by the time it arrives... its too late.


For those who wonder, here is how I gauge my content based upon time to learn:
* Casual - Up to a maximum of 10 minutes to learn the content / encounter with options to make it even easier if needed.
* Midcore - Up to a maximum of 60 minutes to learn an encounter. - (Extremes)
* Hardcore - Up to several lockouts to learn an encounter. - (Savage)
* Elite - Up to several days to weeks to learn an encounter. - (Ultimate)
* Heros - Playing FFXIV 1.0.0. - (Nightmare)