Still no auto-combo for 123 on old jobs.

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Originally Posted by undull1

So convenience is a bad evil thing that should be punished? Am I a lesser player for using a more comfortable PS5 controller instead of a Wii remote? Are you really genuinely against OPTIONAL QOL CHANGES?

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The problem is that condensing 1-2-3 very quickly stops being optional when it's objectively the superior option that won't let you fail a combo ever.

If you want condensing as a viable *option*, you also need to have an equally powerful motivator to make non-condensed a viable gameplay choice, or you're virtually deprecating it.

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Originally Posted by Kaecilius

The problem is that condensing 1-2-3 very quickly stops being optional when it's objectively the superior option that won't let you fail a combo ever.

If you want condensing as a viable *option*, you also need to have an equally powerful motivator to make non-condensed a viable gameplay choice, or you're virtually deprecating it.

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The motivator --damn significant in trying to optimize for a raid fight or even just maintain orientation amid mechanics-- is tactile cues and their accordant memory aids (when I hit this combo-finisher, I will have 2 GCDs until adds spawn).

The necessity for parity is simply removing the traps that do not offer any agency (e.g., once you've started a combo, the only options are to reset it or to continue it, similarly to Monk outside of PB). With that the value of those cues is significant enough that I'd have no desire to consolidate skills until having lost use of at least a couple fingers.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, each combo needs two and only two options available to it: to continue, and to restart. All else is a trap. There will never be a reason to hit a combo skill deeper or, other than the opener, lower than what is readied.

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This takes up 2 buttons per combo, with the total reduced per redundant opener. (3 combos sharing the same opener would need only 4 keys for complete control.)

In practice, though, basically only one job in the game can benefit noticeably from a partial combo (GNB, via Brutal Shell), while all others could use 1 button per combo at cost only to tactile cues, not to control.
(Note that while DRG may want to cancel after a mistaken Disembowel or Vorpal in order to swap chains, that can be done by simply hitting the opposite combo, maintaining full access to any and all viable ST weaponskill actions with just 2 buttons.)

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That said, I don't think I could give up the memory aid of having the separate keys on a job with actual cycles. It helps me keep in the rhythm of the fight in ways I'd imagine consolidation (where, say, a GCD 54, GCD 55, and 56 of the same combo are indistinguishable except by SFX and AFX) would fall far short of.

Moreover, rather than a fixed toggle for consolidation or no consolidation, I'd still prefer players be able to macro whatever they please and as they please (though still to one actuation per button-press without some degree of uptime loss), and simply for those without cycles (DNC, BRD, RDM, etc.) to see small changes to make those separate keys more worthwhile:

For instance, Bard might allow for a second stack of Straighter Shot (so that there can be more to Refulgent/Shadowbite than just key-swiping through them into Burst/Laden), and Veraero and Verthunder might be given a more reasonable cast time of 3 or 3.5 seconds (dps-inefficient, but sometimes useful for readying a spell against an enemy about to fall out of immunity or for rebalancing [if that were ever made a real/felt mechanic again]).

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Tl:dr: Given basic parity of being freed from traps, separate keys would still be superior for most players serious about scripted content (i.e., any serious content) due to their supplied memory aid. Offering consolidation will not push out separate keys in any way once you remove what traps provide no agency beyond sandbagging. Thereafter, consolidation should be wholly customizable, however, as supplied by drawing back the intentional sabotage of the macro system, rather than an official and typically XIV-dev-ified toggle.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

each combo needs two and only two options available to it: to continue, and to restart. All else is a trap. There will never be a reason to hit a combo skill deeper or, other than the opener, lower than what is readied.

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There are situations in high end optimization in which breaking combo and using a specific GCD (e. g. Chaotic Spring) can lead to gains if any other GCD would ghost just before a boss disappears from the arena. This is just one example and more do exist. We could argue that they're niche enough but still, they're there. Making the combos of most jobs automatic a la VPR would remove this kind of emergent game play from players.


In any case, I agree with Kaecilius and TomsYoungerBro, the jobs right now are so simplified that simplifying them further by condensing GCDs would essentially make battle content play itself and SE will not give anything in return after removing something. We can start arguing for the consolidation of combos when it makes sense within a job's kit but right now this is not the case for most simply because of how "streamlined" they all are.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

As mentioned earlier in the thread, each combo needs two and only two options available to it: to continue, and to restart. All else is a trap. There will never be a reason to hit a combo skill deeper or, other than the opener, lower than what is readied.

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The trap *is* the point. It's a failure state that is not overtly punishing, but one that you don't want to repeat in optimal play, especially in high-end content. We can simplify combo failure states out of the rotation, but let's not pretend there's no point in adding extra cognitive load on a player when they are performing multiple other operations during a combat.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

There are situations in high end optimization in which breaking combo and using a specific GCD (e. g. Chaotic Spring) can lead to gains if any other GCD would ghost just before a boss disappears from the arena. This is just one example and more do exist. We could argue that they're niche enough but still, they're there. Making the combos of most jobs automatic a la VPR would remove this kind of emergent game play from players.

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The only way in which breaking combo can be of net advantage is by resetting it (returning to the opener and prepping a new combo). There is ZERO value in using an unprepped combo skill. You're not getting a dps gain out of a lone Chaotic Spring (no True->DB prior). Its DoT requires its combo preparation.

Viper cannot reset its combos. It has nothing to do with what I just suggested, which is to retain access, always, to reset combos.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

I'd recommend reading any one of the 500 posts that have already addressed this point.

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They make zero sense.

I also recommend reading the post I made somewhere earlier about people enjoying scripted things, even as easy as 1-2-3, vs people enjoying other things and seeing little value in this.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The only way in which breaking combo can be of net advantage is by resetting it. You're not getting a dps gain out of a lone Chaotic Spring (no True->DB prior).

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I just gave you an example of high end optimization in which that's possible.

It'll never stop being funny to me that the people who want this and say "there's no difference, there's no skill expression" are, 99% of the time, the same people that have broken combos if you plug their run's into xivanalysis. Or have 60% uptime on a fight that doesn't have downtime.

Anyone who doesn't break their combos/does have 99% uptime as a non phys range/doesn't have their funny numbers hidden in shame support this? I'd like to clown on you.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

It'll never stop being funny to me that the people who want this and say "there's no difference, there's no skill expression" are, 99% of the time, the same people that have broken combos if you plug their run's into xivanalysis. Or have 60% uptime on a fight that doesn't have downtime.

Anyone who doesn't break their combos/does have 99% uptime as a non phys range/doesn't have their funny numbers hidden in shame support this? I'd like to clown on you.

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I want this. Stop projecting. Also it's very ironic that the character you're posting with has no funny numbers on display to prove your skill with how your attitude is.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I want this. Stop projecting. Also it's very ironic that the character you're posting with has no funny numbers on display to prove your skill with how your attitude is.

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Sorry, I consider the opinions of War mains invalid. No wonder you hard grieved as Monk. Going from the easiest role as tank to dps sure is a trip, huh?