>> Please let us claim that X does not exist despite all the evidence to the contrary, since said evidence does not always appear on the same page as my post and no one could be expected to skim through the thread they comment on. If you must claim it does exist, please recopy it for us in clean, full detail independent on replied-to context each time we request it. Don't merely link a post, since those shuffle around.Quote:
Originally Posted by klu
<< Okay, then since this falls into just one specific approach to a given problem and can thereby deserve its own thread, I'll make a new thread and just link that instead?
>> Haaaa. Narcissists, amirite?
/sigh
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Anywho...
As an increasing amount of my free time has been going towards MOBAs and hero shooters, lately, I can't help but notice how incredible some of those kits are by comparison in terms of density of available action/nuance per separate ability.
Let's take the Paladins' AST-vibe-ish support hero Ying, for instance.
Her kit is simple. Effectively...
- Filler attack
- Healing Turret
- Teleport to Healing Turret (or the location of the one most recently standing)
- Overdrive / Blow up your healing turret (as an AoE attack, customizable to instead AoE heal)
- Ultimate: Big AoE heal nuke that grants self and allies a brief moment of CC immunity
Yet, it manages to play significantly off the unique appearances granted to those skills:
- Her healing turrets are instead each a Mirror Image.
- Because they are placeable at range, she can use them to teleport over walls.
- When she "detonates" them, they seek out nearby enemies to blow themselves up for AoE damage.
- Since they have truesight, she can use them to guard against stealthed enemies, scout for enemies around corners, or finish off camped enemies.
- Once using her Ultimate, Ying can use allies as illusions in some ways, such as by being able to teleport to them as well.
- (And that's before even considering customization, such as in allowing one's illusions to heal nearby allies instead of damaging nearby enemies.)
Just by taking the basics of a turret-based healer a bit further, we end up with those 4 abilities (plus primary fire) offering some extreme leverage and some really fun min-maxing opportunities, such as from setting up ambushes (damaging Illusions) or fall-backs (healing Illusions), ability to pump damage from off-angles and teleport back, to heal-nuke one's main force via her Ultimate before diving with a flanker while the enemy team is suddenly overextended, to have her Illusions intercept damage for her, etc., etc.
Imagine what then could be done with even just a single skill more at such density, or a whole 12 skills at nearly that density. Or if the mirror images could act more like the player herself, mimicking her past movements. Imagine that being extended into a rehaul of an AST, with a small palette of skills spent towards Cards and the rest towards fate-weaving and manipulation of time, space, and/or mass (though I guess that last bit would ultimately be redundant?), perhaps using reflections of herself over time.
It makes me wonder what the PvE experience and PvP experience here could be like, both, with better netcode (so that PvP at 20ms ping here didn't feel like WoW's at 200ms) and a PvE design more open to more broadly integrated interaction instead of dividing the concerns of each role (outside of their sole nearly-uncapped output, damage) as to reduce the experience increasingly towards one of dancing around striking dummies.
FFXIV Healer Strike and the 'How would you fix it?' line
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12-06-2024, 10:20 AMShurrikhan
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01-17-2025, 10:14 AMForsakenRoe
New update, this time for the SGE (I was bored):
- Updated damage potencies. GCDs spent per 2min loop are now balanced to be 'roughly in line with Dawntrail SGE' (it's about 200p per 2min higher than DT's SGE). I based it on the assumption that the player would use 3 Toxikon burst windows per 2min cycle, but additional factors like Piety could make that value higher and complicate the maths further.
- Increased MP costs of Augments to 1500MP, and decreased MP gained from Addersgall actions to 500MP. Even with this change, the SGE would gain around 12000 MP per 2mins via 2 Lucid Dreamings, 6 Addersgall actions, and the occasional Rhizomata giving a free use of an Augment (effectively giving 1500MP), plus enough Addersgall for one spender.
- Decreased Eukrasia's MP cost to 500MP, and halved its Toxikosis generation. Reduces the likelihood of someone needing to use it, but not having the MP to do so. The MP cost cannot be removed fully, as there'd be no reason to not press it before every action.
- Decreased Psyche's damage to 50% of its current value, but halved its cooldown. Effectively, same damage, but you press it twice as often, which contributes to the 'fast paced' feeling of the class that this design intends. Additionally, Psyche triggers Kardia, so using it also helps with healing somewhat. It doesn't benefit from the Augments or consume them, it's just a regular instance of Kardia, so that Psyche uses don't interfere with setting up for a healing-burst window by unexpectedly stealing stacks (forcing you to either mess up your preparation, or delay Psyche until after, both of which feel bad)
- Increased MP restoration effect of Feedback Cycle, but limited its effect to Toxikon stacks (and Pneuma).
- Cleaned up some typos, unclear wording, and a stray reference to 'Toxikon 2' that slipped through
Honestly, I don't think I fully grasped how far into the 'bloated potencies' corner we've been painted until I tried to get this one's 'damage output from GCDs' close to the DT value. For example, I had to reduce Dosis 3 all the way back down to 310, a whole 60p off of what we currently have in DT, in order to make room for the whole '1.5sec GCD burst phase' part of the design. These filler potencies are out of control!
Maths is still potentially off when it comes to balancing the total outputs (OGCDs included) of SGE vs SCH, due to a hefty portion of SCH's potency per 2min being tied to the raidbuff Chain Stratagem. Though, I have tried to base the GCD output of my SCH off of DT SCH, and now this SGE off of DT SGE, so there should theoretically only be a disparity in potency output between the two if there is already such a disparity in DT. If SCH somehow ends up being the one that is behind in damage by a large amount, however, I do have a potential idea to help rectify it somewhat:
Nymian Libra (I'd suggest putting it at Level 50):
Upon executing Nymian Libra, the target is afflicted with 3 stacks of Nymian Libra.
One stack is consumed each time the target is afflicted by a DOT attack (Bio, Miasma, Shadowflare, Baneful Impaction) from the SCH, and guarantees that the initial damage, and every tick of the DOT, is a critical hit.
If a DOT with the 'guaranteed Crit' effect is spread via Bane, every secondary target's copy of the DOT is also guaranteed to Crit.
Upon reaching level 66, Nymian Libra would upgrade to Chain Stratagem, adding its effect to the listed effects of Chain Stratagem (the Crit Rate raidbuff, and the 'one free use of Bane').
Upon reaching level 92, a 4th stack is applied, and Baneful Impaction is able to consume a stack to guarantee it is critical on every tick.
Also, I may revisit the SGE, if I can come up with a good way to allow players to choose between using Toxikon on the fast burst window, or using it to empower Dosis for a slower gameplay closer to the current cadence. I expect there are a number of players who would not want to be 'forced' into playing as fast-paced a design as is listed above, and so giving them an option to play at the current speed would be nice. I'm just not sure (at this time) how to go about making sure that the potency outputs are equivalent, such that there isn't one of 'Fast SGE vs Slow SGE rotation' that is more 'optimal' than the other, but maybe I'll have a Eureka Moment at some point about it -
01-18-2025, 03:55 AMklu
Nice necro.
We don't need two threads about this subject on the front page. We never did.
Please cease crapping up the forums. -
01-18-2025, 04:35 AMForsakenRoeThanks. If people are going to keep bumping threads about other stuff, like 'can we get more Glamour Plates plsssss' because the problem still persists, I think I'm allowed to bump this one whenever there's a big update. There's a thread from 2022 currently on the second page. This thread is also not quite 'the same subject' as the #healerstrike thread. That one is 'there is a problem with the healer role and people are taking a stand'. This one is 'there's a thread where people have said there's a problem with the healer role, and here's my take on how to address the concerns raised'. If you'd prefer that everyone simply complains about the role, but offer no potential solutions and just repeatedly yell 'healer role broken fix it now SE' without giving any more detail about how it's broken... well, that doesn't sound productive for us or for SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by klu
As soon as SE makes healing fun in all content, this thread's purpose will expire, and it can fade into obscurity.
Until such a time, I will occasionally update the posts on page 1 with ideas I have, and then make a post explaining the changes (like patch notes).
Sorry that you had to read this thread again. I understand that it detracts from your enjoyment of the General Discussion forums, with such quality reading material as 'Dawntrail bad' and 'where are Viera hat'. If this thread bothers you so much, maybe don't post in it and bump it yourself next time -
01-18-2025, 05:04 AMklu
My guy.
If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it to? What about the anonymity of the internet makes people so self assured at seeing a gaggle of foolishness, and saying to themselves "Well I should engage in it too."
This threads purpose will not "expire" when SE makes healing align with your tastes. It never had a purpose, because there is already. a. thread. on. this. subject.
And you know that. You want YOUR special bespoke thread. And you're pretending that other people's lack of standards excuses your own.
Please cease crapping up the forums. -
01-18-2025, 01:42 PMMaltothorisProblem, uits's too bloated. 1020 pages. That seems like way too much to shift through.Quote:
Originally Posted by klu
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01-18-2025, 01:52 PMSupersnow845
People on the healerstrike thread
“Why are you diluting your message with crap I don’t know what you are asking”
Seperate thread pops up giving specific explanation of what a lot of people want
“Why make two thread when one thread do job”
It’s like people will argue literally anything other than the problems people have with healers -
01-18-2025, 02:59 PMRein_eon_Osborne
I'd kindly ask you to also stop crapping this thread similarly as shown by your behavior from 3 months ago in that other thread.
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01-18-2025, 03:29 PMSupersnow845
“Why use second thread to complain use primary thread”
On primary thread
“Why complain shut up”
The comedy writes itself -
01-18-2025, 04:17 PMShurrikhanNo, but you're literally sitting here purposely derailing a fork that had every typical reason to fork (easing discussion of a more specialized sub-topic relevant to the mega-thread but optional to the mega-thread's continuance) just because you have a personal issue with the conversation it forked from. Don't pretend it's anything more than that, or you would have a far greater issue with the several copies of each topic to grace the General Forums that are not healer threads. That those somehow do not, judging from your post history, draw your ire more greatly in proportion to their waste, makes your issue with this one pretty obviously secondary or an outright excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by klu
This is like somehow DDoSing the download server for a program variant on the basis that, to your mind, the the purpose of that program --and somehow only that purpose in particular-- could never deserve adaptation or specialization...
Please note the bathroom mirror if the obvious is lost on you.Quote:
Please cease crapping up the forums.
I appreciate the intention to tighten the maths here, but focusing on the absolute potencies over just the thresholds and targets (e.g., how much excess MP-over-filler-attack should be spendable per minute, and the bonus potency in relation to a filler that MP provides, etc., and the intended use cases for the given skills) does make it take longer to get to the heart of imagined gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Would be a bit easier to imagine, for instance, off just knowing how many Augment-granting casts should be available per minute, etc.
Similarly, the spitballed Nymian Libra effects do feel a bit bloated at this point.
(Nitpick/mostly-irrelevant, but Chain Strategem also doesn't yet feel very... Strategic, and while Libra could be potentially interesting as a sort of timing anchor like single-charge Reassemble or ShB Tsubame-Gaeshi, it also feels similarly... ehh? Though, I'm not sure how to make it actually feel any more Libra-like, either, off the top of my head.)