Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How so? The final days wasn’t really their own doing, and they were suffering trying to bring back their loved ones. As we know, a primal being slayed doesn’t untemper someone so presumably the sundered ascians are still tempered. If you mean the souls within him then yes but i meant moreso the ancients as a whole.

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It's also nowhere confirmed that the ancients within Zodiark were tempered. That is specific to the summoners, and the lore directly before entering Ragnarok further undermines such claims as meaningful anyway. As for the ancients as a collective being to blame for the actions of one madman and his bird waifu? That's about as logical as blaming the entirety of the sundered if the Black Rose were to run rampant and consume the planet. Makes zero sense.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How so? The final days wasn’t really their own doing, and they were suffering trying to bring back their loved ones. As we know, a primal being slayed doesn’t untemper someone so presumably the sundered ascians are still tempered. If you mean the souls within him then yes but i meant moreso the ancients as a whole.

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Zodiark was their solution, and a solution that beget suffering whilst not solving the issue. It's tragic, but it is meant to be so. Furthermore, upon his defeat all ancients trapped within and the unsundered are implied to have been freed of tempering as Zodiark's tempering was different. Although these were souls rather than physical forms.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's also nowhere confirmed that the ancients within Zodiark were tempered. That is specific to the summoners, and the lore directly before entering Ragnarok further undermines such claims as meaningful anyway. As for the ancients as a collective being to blame for the actions of one madman and his bird waifu? That's about as logical as blaming the entirety of the sundered if the Black Rose were to run rampant and consume the planet. Makes zero sense.

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Yep. Plus Tempering in itself has been shown to be very flexible. In some cases, it alters the mind and body completely. In others, it has very little or no influence over the actions of the individual. For example, Emet-Selch brought Y'shtola back from the dead which he would not have done if he was truly unable to do anything but work towards the restoration of Zodiark. Which, in itself, was simply a means to an end - Zodiark was but the method required to restore the Source to its original state.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Zodiark was their solution, and a solution that beget suffering whilst not solving the issue. It's tragic, but it is meant to be so. Furthermore, upon his defeat all ancients trapped within and the unsundered are implied to have been freed of tempering as Zodiark's tempering was different. Although these were souls rather than physical forms.

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Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so :p

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Zodiark was their solution, and a solution that beget suffering whilst not solving the issue. It's tragic, but it is meant to be so. Furthermore, upon his defeat all ancients trapped within and the unsundered are implied to have been freed of tempering as Zodiark's tempering was different. Although these were souls rather than physical forms.

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What you're forgetting is that without the Ancients summoning Zodiark, the world dies in the first final days. The issue was more that after they summoned Zodiark to stop the final days and fix the world to the point where it was habitable again, the ancients wanted to sacrifice more to bring back the old days of paradise. Which is why Venat stepped in. But the ancients can't really be faulted for summoning Zodiark in the first place. It was probably the only solution they had at the time against an energy they didn't understand and didn't have time to learn to understand.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so :p

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It's also possible that Zodiark would have lead to the extinction of the ancients given that more of them were basically feeding themselves to it in hopes it would return the world to how it was before the end of days. They basically stopped looking to the future and wished to return to the past. Which by retaining the knowledge of Meteion's reports was a mindset that lead to the end of other worlds. So even if Zodiark had successfully restored the world to how it was before the end of days, the mindset created by the event would have likely lead to an end similar to other worlds meteion visited had experienced. Also given emet selch's initial reaction when the WoL informed them of the end of days it was likely reasoned providing that info after the memory wipe when no physical evidence was available wouldn't have accomplished anything.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so :p

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I think a lot of it came down to Venat not wanting to create a time paradox of some kind. In her eyes, the time of the Ancients was coming to a close. Even if she had come forward with the information she had available, her peers might have thought their civilization too big to fail and ignored her. That and Meteion was hanging out at the edge of the known universe, where she couldn't be reached (well, back then anyway). And the Final Days hit them pretty soon after she vanished, so they didn't have time to construct a means to reach her. Venat was looking to preserve a future that could still be saved.

Y-yall do know venat couldn't say anything, right? The final days for the ancients and the sundering had to play out. Eledibus literally said you cannot change what happened or it changes the future thus making nothing possible. We even try not to say anything but emet and venat were way too smart and figured it out that were were not who we say we are and from the future. The only way to win was in our time with info on the threat we got from its start

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I think a lot of it came down to Venat not wanting to create a time paradox of some kind. In her eyes, the time of the Ancients was coming to a close. Even if she had come forward with the information she had available, her peers might have thought their civilization too big to fail and ignored her. That and Meteion was hanging out at the edge of the known universe, where she couldn't be reached (well, back then anyway). And the Final Days hit them pretty soon after she vanished, so they didn't have time to construct a means to reach her. Venat was looking to preserve a future that could still be saved.

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The thing is, even though Emet believes us, he says himself he needs to assist us due to his duty for the star, in the odd chance we are telling the truth. Him and Hythlo also both remark they know they were mind wiped, they can feel it. It’s as simple as her saying yes you were mind wiped. This is why. x,x, and x is happening etc.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

It's also possible that Zodiark would have lead to the extinction of the ancients given that more of them were basically feeding themselves to it in hopes it would return the world to how it was before the end of days. They basically stopped looking to the future and wished to return to the past. Which by retaining the knowledge of Meteion's reports was a mindset that lead to the end of other worlds. So even if Zodiark had successfully restored the world to how it was before the end of days, the mindset created by the event would have likely lead to an end similar to other worlds meteion visited had experienced. Also given emet selch's initial reaction when the WoL informed them of the end of days it was likely reasoned providing that info after the memory wipe when no physical evidence was available wouldn't have accomplished anything.

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I dont really agree with this. People act like they were sacrificing people every other day lmao. They had only sacrificed people a total of two times. A 3rd was on its way however it should be noted based on Emer's short story, they were extremely split on the decision. It's unlikely after the 3rd set they would continue to sacrifice to him, at that point what would they even be sacrificing for? They'd have everything back.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is, even though Emet believes us, he says himself he needs to assist us due to his duty for the star, in the odd chance we are telling the truth. Him and Hythlo also both remark they know they were mind wiped, they can feel it. It’s as simple as her saying yes you were mind wiped. This is why. x,x, and x is happening etc.


I dont really agree with this. People act like they were sacrificing people every other day lmao. They had only sacrificed people a total of two times. A 3rd was on its way however it should be noted based on Emer's short story, they were extremely split on the decision. It's unlikely after the 3rd set they would continue to sacrifice to him, at that point what would they even be sacrificing for? They'd have everything back.

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And story wise, our characters and the game world would cease to exist if they had been allowed to intervene, not that they had much time to actually do anything anyway. So it would make sense that it would be more about saving the future than a doomed past. If they wanted to go about it your way, they'd have created an alternate timeline. I suppose that can't really be ruled out. Who knows, maybe the writers will get bored and want to try something new somewhere down the line. But if it's not done right it would be an absolute failure.