Increasing number of players using 3rd party tools

Just chucking my 2 cents into the void again now that the topic has shifted to calling people out:

Is it okay to address someone's performance in a negative manner by bringing up numbers and shaming them publicly? Absolutely not.

However, addressing issues during a run with politeness and constructive criticism(especially if someone asks for help) should be something that is encouraged.

It's also a two way street though: the person giving the feedback has to be able to bring it up in a manner that doesn't seem confrontational, the person on the receiving end has to be able to take the feedback without retaliating.

Would be super nice though if Square could rewrite their ToS a bit to remove people being able to report for people giving them reasonable feedback.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

In this context, wasted time means group does few pulls, disbands then waits 30 min in PF to refill. If this is not annoying to you then it seems you are not doing this kind of content.

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Omega 11 Savage in PF! I just waited 3 hours to fill a group! If I was forced to abandon the entire group, just because of one random dude, I would stop raiding entirely!

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Just chucking my 2 cents into the void again now that the topic has shifted to calling people out:

Is it okay to address someone's performance in a negative manner by bringing up numbers and shaming them publicly? Absolutely not.

However, addressing issues during a run with politeness and constructive criticism(especially if someone asks for help) should be something that is encouraged.

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Insults are never ok. I guess we can all agree to that.

The problem is: If the game doesnt provide any feedback about players performance, the player itself have to do that. Not hard to understand, right?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They're different indeed, but I do kind of wonder if maybe SE would actually do something about the latter if people cared about it half as much as the former.

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Issue is they can't do much without getting involved with our PCs. It's easy to bypass bans and the people involved in mass botting most likely have money to blow on as many accounts/PCs/routers/etc. that they want.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

Omega 11 Savage in PF! I just waited 3 hours to fill a group! If I was forced to abandon the entire group, just because of one random dude, I would stop raiding entirely!




Insults are never ok. I guess we can all agree to that.

The problem is: If the game doesnt provide any feedback about players performance, the player have to do that. Not hard to understand, right?

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Please read my 3rd paragraph. I said it should be encouraged. However, it is not your job to parent anyone and bringing it up in a manner that isn't polite or constructive won't solve the problem you're looking to solve. If someone is literally ignoring you or trolling then vote kick and move forward with your day.

There's also the old reliable method of doing content with your FC/friends that you already know the skill range of if randoms performing poorly is something that is bothersome.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Please read my 3rd paragraph. I said it should be encouraged. However, it is not your job to parent anyone and bringing it up in a manner that isn't polite or constructive won't solve the problem you're looking to solve. If someone is literally ignoring you or trolling then vote kick and move forward with your day.

There's also the old reliable method of doing content with your FC/friends that you already know the skill range of if randoms performing poorly is something that is bothersome.

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Not to parent anyone. But what choice do we have? If I see someone who is performing extremely low, I would talk to him and try to help him.
But just by saying: "Your damage is pretty low", I can be reported for a) using a third party tool and b) somehow insulting or whatever.
So I keep my mouth shut and have to watch when some "mentor" making the situation even worse.

Sure, its not my job to play the big teacher for each underperformer. But its an MMORPG and i want to communicate and interact with other people.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Bad apples always happens. It feels like you want the people who wasted your time to be held accountable for it. You are right it is a mmorpg. When you go into a group prebuilt of strangers. That is the risk you took, and if someone wants to play bad in that group. Well within right to do so. That is the risk that balances out how easy it is to make a group. You also have the tools to increase your success chance, if you don't want to take the risk.

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I wont punish 6 other people by abandon a good group, just because of one underperformer.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

And what if one player refuses to play properly just for the luls?

Lets say, you re in a 24-man raid and one player just prefers to watch Netflix and wants to get carried. He uses Auto Attacks, sometimes a skill and no one would ever notice.
You re telling me, I have no right to call out those kind of players?

Another example. You re opening a PF for a primal kill. But even with no deaths and no fails, the boss wipe the raid at 2%. Again and again.
Now, you have to choose: Call out the weakspot of the group and replace him (when needed). Or abandon the whole group, because you cant find the issue without a parser.

It should be legit to call out other players, when they dont doing the job properly. "Call outs" shouldnt contain insults, of course.
But I find it way worse if someone troll or hinder the party, than somebody who is talking about some numbers.




It is not. Yes, its a MMORPG. But that doesnt mean, that anyone got the right to waste the time of other people on purpose. If you re not doing your job, you dont deserve your place in your party. Simple.

Group disbanding is worse than kicking out the only person one who is responsible for wasting other peoples time. And thats the case in reality. Any partyfinder will kick you, if you re not doing your job.

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Bad apples always happens. It feels like you want the people who wasted your time to be held accountable for it. You are right it is a mmorpg. When you go into a group prebuilt of strangers. That is the risk you took, and if someone wants to play bad in that group. Well within right to do so. That is the risk that balances out how easy it is to make a group. You also have the tools to increase your success chance, if you don't want to take the risk.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

Not to parent anyone. But what choice do we have? If I see someone who is performing extremely low, I would talk to him and try to help him.
But just by saying: "Your damage is pretty low", I can be reported for a) using a third party tool and b) somehow insulting or whatever.
So I keep my mouth shut and have to watch when some "mentor" making the situation even worse.

Sure, its not my job to play the big teacher for each underperformer. But its an MMORPG and i want to communicate and interact with other people.

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Then that is something to protest to Square about since they're granting it, it doesn't give you the excuse to talk down to someone as an alternative.

Or perhaps don't just say "Your damage is low." I'm sure you can add more detail to it to make it not come off like you're using a parser.

For example: "I don't see you using x spell, perhaps refresh on your skill tips or watch a YouTube video on your class afterwards."

I actually saw that used in practice while running with another mentor and the person took it very well and said "Okay" and tried to use the spell more.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Would be super nice though if Square could rewrite their ToS a bit to remove people being able to report for people giving them reasonable feedback.

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I don't believe polite feedback is actionable and would get anyone in trouble, as long as it's not based on parser information. I do entirely believe, however, that many people on these forums have no earthly clue how to interact politely; and usually just make backhanded comments out of frustration, then try to play the "I was only helping!" victim card when they get in trouble.

Regardless, there's nothing wrong with polite feedback. If the feedback is ignored and/or isn't wanted, however, the self-anointed teachers need to learn to let it go.

Threads like this remind ne that the XIV community dislikes the *potential* of aggression so much that they go full horseshoe and enshrine passive-aggression as some sort of moral imperative. They don't call you out for bad damage numbers on JP servers, nor do they often try to turn a bad pull into a teaching moment. They add you to the passive-aggressive 2ch blacklist and silently kick you going forward.

FF14 has a really pleasant community...on the surface. The "you don't pay my sub!" crowd is evidence that it's not exactly better. They're just cattier about conflict. The mere fact that the community actively hides from basic information like damage output and pretends that even knowing it is "cheating" speaks for itself.

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Originally Posted by Elissar

Dude..honestly
ACT won't hurt anyone
WoW is bad today because they build a whole content based on hardcore players. They forced casual players to play as a hardcore and as a consequence the game is more competitive.
WoW is almost a MMO version of a MOBA.

FFXIV still a chill and lovely game. I do use ACT sometimes when i want to figure out how damage really works and ALSO i use XIVLauncher with some plugins. PLUS i use mods for BLM, DRK and NIN skills AND Gshade Angelite. No regrets :)

Here is a screenshot:
https://imgur.com/RK22H6a

So..how exactly my preferences are making your game worse?

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Absolutely disgusting. It's mods like this that will destroy the game.

I can see a time where you won't be allowed into any end game group unless you are using a UI addon that shows your ping. And don't get me started on a mod that inserts a comma into damage values. That is peak cheating and completely ruins everything the game is about.

In all seriousness, there is absolutely nothing wrong with clientside UI mods, I don't know why people get so angry about how other people set up their UI.

Same as people who get angry about ACT and parsing. Just screams "Waahhhh, waahhhh, that person is having fun in a different way to me and that is not allowed".

Addons will never become required by endgame groups, simply because 99% of them are client-side cosmetic style things. And the 1% that are not, are condemned by the addon using community as cheating and generally avoided (XivAlexander being the only one I can really think of that's an unfair advantage - though can you even gain an unfair advantage in PvE where you are only competing against an AI)

All the people I see complaining about this, especially in this thread are casual players who would never touch end game content anyway.