The clones of Emet.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I like Emet-Selch as a character, but I'm not going to defend his actions or go all out on a crusade against Hydaelyn just because his story made me sad and I can see where he came from. Still doesn't change the fact that he went around mass-murdering for 10,000 years and doesn't see it as murder because our lives are insignificant to his. The people who agree with that statement are creepy.

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There’s far more too his and the ascians’ story than just the mass murdering part. You and others seem to simplify their entire storyline and only focus on the mass murder to fit some strange narrative. People who agree with him do it because of the overall story of rejoining the worlds to how they use to be and fixing the unstable world. I can say Hydaelyn has committed mass murder and genocide too, in sundering people and making them go from being immune to illness and living thousands upon thousands of years, to being very vulnerable to illness and only living 100 years if they’re lucky. I can argue every single death from illness and age is due to her and in that case she’s committed far more murder and genocide than they have lmao.

At the end of the day we're talking about fictional characters in a make believe setting. None of it is real. They're just pixels on a screen/words in a story. I don't see much point in implying other people are somehow wrong for liking or disliking specific characters or factions in a game designed for mass appeal and sold in many different countries.

The game has a global audience and players come from many different countries, cultures, backgrounds and life experiences. As a result, it strikes me as counter productive to assume that everybody needs to think, feel and react a certain way.

Nobody is a bad person because they don't start screaming and smacking their head against their keyboard every time the supposed 'BAD MAN' or 'BAD WOMAN' does something that they dislike. Many of us just want an entertaining story with interesting characters and we're confident enough in our morality that we don't need it to be constantly reinforced at each and every turn.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

There’s far more too his and the ascians’ story than just the mass murdering part. You and others seem to simplify their entire storyline and only focus on the mass murder to fit some strange narrative. People who agree with him do it because of the overall story of rejoining the worlds to how they use to be and fixing the unstable world. I can say Hydaelyn has committed mass murder and genocide too, in sundering people and making them go from being immune to illness and living thousands upon thousands of years, to being very vulnerable to illness and only living 100 years if they’re lucky. I can argue every single death from illness and age is due to her and in that case she’s committed far more murder and genocide than they have lmao.

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Dude. What strange narrative?

The story from the very beginning of ARR, and all throughout Shadowbringers was to stop calamities. Calamaties being things where millions of people on both the Source and the target world die. Our character and all of our friends happen to live on the Source and would die if something happened to it. We're told at the beginning of the game that what happened 5 years ago was a calamity, and there are bad guys out there that want to do it again. That's the entire plot, condensed. How is pointing out that the sad guys who have killed the world 7 times are bad a "strange narrative" when the fact that they have done so is central to the story?

If the Ascians weren't going around causing trouble and trying to blow up the world for the 8th time, we'd have 0 reason to fight them and there would be no plot.

You could say that the Sundering was a mass murder since it resulted in the loss of identity of everyone alive at the time, but you lost me at illnesses=Hydaelyn genocide.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Dude. What strange narrative?

The story from the very beginning of ARR, and all throughout Shadowbringers was to stop calamities. Calamaties being things where millions of people on both the Source and the target world die. Our character and all of our friends happen to live on the Source and would die if something happened to it. We're told at the beginning of the game that what happened 5 years ago was a calamity, and there are bad guys out there that want to do it again. That's the entire plot, condensed. How is pointing out that the sad guys who have killed the world 7 times are bad a "strange narrative" when the fact that they have done so is central to the story?

If the Ascians weren't going around causing trouble and trying to blow up the world for the 8th time, we'd have 0 reason to fight them and there would be no plot.

You could say that the Sundering was a mass murder since it resulted in the loss of identity of everyone alive at the time, but you lost me at illnesses=Hydaelyn genocide.

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Right so they’re in the wrong for “sacrificing” people to get what they want. Yet Ironworks agreed to do the same thing, willing to sacrifice their entire timeline and universe to…get what they wanted. Yet they’re seen as the heroes, funny double standard that. How did i lose you? Did you read what i said? Illness only became a thing because of Hydaelyn. The sundered folk are susceptible to it, the ancients hardly knew about such things as illness, this is reflected in Emet’s short story. Death by illness=deaths hydaelyn caused by creating the sundered.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

How is talking about a main character in a game have anything to do with roleplayers? Roleplayers can do whatever they want, but this isn't a roleplaying forum, it's the lore forum.

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I was referring to:

"I don't dislike the character of Emet-Selch, he's my favorite villain in the game and one of my favorites in the series. But the level of admiration and even thirst toward him and antagonists in other media is a little creepy. Especially when people point out that he's a bad guy and others get up in arms and come out to defend him."

Does it matter if it's creepy to someone? People here need to stop with the gatekeeping if you want anyone to comment at all. It is like running into a brick wall to post anything here as a nonestablished lore nerd who just wants to read and talk about free kupo nuts and crinoid-laden voidy architecture and opalized fish fossils in The Tempest and Milton poem references. If someone draws someone with no pants on why is that harmful.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Right so they’re in the wrong for “sacrificing” people to get what they want. Yet Ironworks agreed to do the same thing, willing to sacrifice their entire timeline and universe to…get what they wanted. Yet they’re seen as the heroes, funny double standard that. How did i lose you? Did you read what i said? Illness only became a thing because of Hydaelyn. The sundered folk are susceptible to it, the ancients hardly knew about such things as illness, this is reflected in Emet’s short story. Death by illness=deaths hydaelyn caused by creating the sundered.

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I never said the Ascians are wrong for the sacrifices. I never said that the first summonings of Zodiark were bad. On the contrary, they were good things and the people who gave their lives volunteered. Where I say "wait a minute" is when a primal says "now give me all of the aether from the life of the newly created world and I'll totally convert that into all your friends and family that voluntarily sacrificed themselves to the cause and then disappear".

We also don't know that illness didn't exist out in the world outside of Amaurot back then. We don't know a lot about the world outside Amaurot in the ancient days. We know there were farmers though, and I'm less inclined to believe that the grape farmers on a random volcanic island are immortal godlike beings.

And if you read the other Tales as much as you read the Emet-Selch ones, you'd know that the Ironworks didn't sacrifice their timeline. Their world didn't get deleted when they sent the Crystal Tower out into time, to another world. It still exists as a separate timeline where the 8th calamity happened and everything sucks. All they did was make it so that time split between one line where there was nothing that could prevent what happened, to one where there was and we won so the events that led to their timeline won't happen in ours. The only potential sacrificing that may happen is if FFXIV is like FFXI and Atomos is out there eating extra timelines. The story ends with Midgardsormr protecting the Ironworks as the engineers lead the world into a new Astral Era.

(btw thank you for these replies)
Exactly right in that the story of FFXIV has been very consistent and clear on which side are the protagonists and which are antagonists- and even when giving explanations and more nuance to the motivations of the antagonists or in some cases enabling a change of heart in them so that they join or align with the protagonists side (though I'd argue that Emet until after we defeat him at the Dying Gasp never really did- and his 'prove yourself worthy of my standards to be worth anything, even remembering', is exactly why I found him repulsive as a character and also ties into the flip-side of fantasy's Chosen One narratives that doesn't make them personally fun entertainment anymore). Whether or not we end up fighting Hydaelyn as well as Zodiark doesn't change the fact that the protagonist is aligned with the motivations to protect the 'Sundered' worlds and life and will chose the path that best fulfills that goal, and we'd only fight Hydaelyn if we find a third option that fulfills Venat's factions goals better. There's no 'Dark Sider' option this late in the game, nor was XIV ever going to be that.

As for getting back to the topic of Emet clones, I'd worry introducing a clone!Solus would lead to a rehash of Gaia and Ryne stepping out from the shadow of their past lives and becoming their own people. Though it could be mindless clone mobs to fight as dungeon trash like Syrcus Tower's Doga and Unei clone trash mobs. Though now that I think about it, having a clone that knows it is Solus and has nothing of Emet's personality or desires and thus none of the Minfilia/Ryne conflict would be fun.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

As for getting back to the topic of Emet clones, I'd worry introducing a clone!Solus would lead to a rehash of Gaia and Ryne stepping out from the shadow of their past lives and becoming their own people. Though it could be mindless clone mobs to fight as dungeon trash like Syrcus Tower's Doga and Unei clone trash mobs. Though now that I think about it, having a clone that knows it is Solus and has nothing of Emet's personality or desires and thus none of the Minfilia/Ryne conflict would be fun.

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Something I realized while explaining the whole Emet thing to someone on Reddit: We don't know when Emet-Selch took over Solus' body and life. It was a while ago, sure, he's the one that kickstarted the Garlean Empire. But did he possess a young man who was in prime position to seize control? Did he possess an adult already in a position of power, and took a sharp right turn to fascism with it? Did he possess a literal child and play the part of a prodigy?

In the game we've currently been given it doesn't actually matter, because we've only ever dealt with Solus and Emet-Selch as 'the (previous) Emperor', the logistics of his rise to power just don't matter. ...but if we're dealing with an Emet-less Solus clone, would they perhaps have the mind of Solus from the period just before Emet took control?

If an 'Emet' clone was brought in as an actual character, my dream would be for it to be Solus - and Solus who is horrified and disgusted at the abomination that became of his Garlemald, the destruction not just of the land and people but also the wiping out of their native religion and culture and government -everything that he would have been fighting for- all by a malicious imposter using his name. And then have him ally with the Populares/fight against Zenos and Fandaniel.

I'm not sure if this is going to show, but I have recreated Emet as a bunny boi

https://ibb.co/82F6Tjk