To those that say FF14 is not a big dog in MMO's

As far as I'm concerned, both WoW and FFXIV have perks and flaws. Though neither is likely to entertain most people on a long term basis. Tastes and habits change over time.

I'm personally in favour of game developers being given free reign to create the game that they want to create without too much input from the community. After all, it's more common than not for game developers to priortise engagement with the likes of Twitter and Reddit these days which are both exceptionally shady platforms with a strong track record of being echo chambers, making an issue out of every tiny little thing and actively discriminating against anyone with a different opinion to fashionable 'group think'.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Tbf, SE ain’t exactly that much better with their communication between things like housing and genderlocks/races lol.

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To say nothing of the response to the suggestion for stubble as a character customisation for male characters. A commonly requested feature that the development team were wholly unaware about...despite actively marketing the Warrior of Darkness as of Shadowbringers as having custom made stubble in promotional footage in-game and in cinematics...

I left WoW just into MoP. I dipped my toes into it a bit each expansion but left within a week barring WOD, where it was a bit longer. I used to raid in it, whereas I haven't really had the time to do that in FF14, although we'll see how it shapes up in 6.0. I'd leave WoW even if 14 had no end game content at all, because I just grew tired of the game and its direction. There's still lots of things in it I miss, like its races, their zones, the class abilities and flavour, BG PVP, the spec system, and so on, but it just isn't the game I started when I began in WOTLK. It's less to do with how marvelous 14 is and more to do with the fact that WoW feels hollow. I don't want to play a game I have a love/hate relationship with; likewise, if it were to get to that point with 14, I'd make the same decision.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Mythic + looks great on paper, but the WoW community's obsession with the meta has made getting involved very difficult and frankly toxic at times. And the community's obsession with the meta directly goes back to Blizzard treating the game as if raiding is the only worthy goal to have.

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Except, Higher keys in M+ actually require meta a lot more often to deal with increasingly more damaging mechanics while maintaining an under-clock timing. The issue with obsession becomes where people try to enforce it below 10+ and think it doesnt make public key running not completely toxic.

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It's actually that mindset the WoW community has that ruined Classic WoW for me. I was playing a meta healer, but that was because I liked the spec not because I wanted to follow the meta. I hated watching all the crap non meta classes and specs were getting. I didn't leave retail in disgust, but I did leave Classic in disgust. What I miss about WoW is an era that is long gone and will never be seen again with the current decision makers in power.

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As much as people want to say that the players ruined Classic, the nostalgia of Classic remains with your own personal journey that you had when you first experience. You will not have that same experience now 16+ years later.

That being said: people who didnt expect that people were going to optimize Classic were going to be in for a rude awakening regardless -- because the private Classic servers had many people doing optimized Classic runs. Classic WoW was also massively easier but more tedious compared to retail. Molten Core being completely finished in HOURS after being open was bound to happen since MC was a rushed raid that barely had mechanics.

I never played WoW when it was actually in Classic -- but bought into my friends who talked about its fancies and nostalgia. I tried it, and just stopped playing after reaching level 30 -- its boring and tedious as hell. I never had that connection and nostalgia playing it back 16 years ago and to me it felt like a poorly optimized MMO that was moonlighting as an RPG.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As far as I'm concerned, both WoW and FFXIV have perks and flaws. Though neither is likely to entertain most people on a long term basis. Tastes and habits change over time.

I'm personally in favour of game developers being given free reign to create the game that they want to create without too much input from the community. After all, it's more common than not for game developers to priortise engagement with the likes of Twitter and Reddit these days which are both exceptionally shady platforms with a strong track record of being echo chambers, making an issue out of every tiny little thing and actively discriminating against anyone with a different opinion to fashionable 'group think'.

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The reason they use Twitter is just because how good Twitter is both as a mobile platform and for advertisement and spreading very fast. If those users love your product they will RT the crap out of it. Unless another platform that doesn't end up being ruled by echochambers comes up and surpasses Twitter this probably won't change anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

The reason they use Twitter is just because how good Twitter is both as a mobile platform and for advertisement and spreading very fast. If those users love your product they will RT the crap out of it. Unless another platform that doesn't end up being ruled by echochambers comes up and surpasses Twitter this probably won't change anytime soon.

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I'd consider the invasion of privacy, risk of harassment, cancel culture, potential exposure to unwanted material and various other factors to outweigh any benefits. The company has a pretty solid base to work with here on this very website that could see more investment, improvement and engagement. We even have a team of community representatives who could benefit from spending more time gathering feedback and engaging us here rather than on Twitter.

At the end of the day, Twitter is in itself a pretty narrow window into the FFXIV community. The players there mostly just share screenshots of their character and discuss the lore - they're not really commenting on the actual PvE and PvP content itself - which is leading to a lot of people, myself included, to feel as though both elements are being sidelined in favour of more and more fluff. Not due to a lack of player interest but because some loud voices are being seen as more prominent than they actually are.

It's about balance.

In the end, it's hard to not to ponder whether FFXIV is fated to make the same mistakes that WoW did.

And even if you use Twitter for advertisement, and engage for that purpose, it's a separate thing to using it as much of a barometer of player opinion... something which their forum should weigh more heavily towards.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

The same was true of WOD.

Do we see a pattern here?

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No, WoD literally had no content. Open world was dead. Garrisons provided all you needed so players rarely left them. Ashran sucked. Raid-logging was super prevalent. Only thing WoD had going was classes -- but if you had no content to do, class design basically meant nothing.

SL just doesnt have continuous rewarding content after loot changes. Lessened loot means less drive to do rewarding content. Maw and Torghast offer no long term rewards for actively doing them. Blizzard just doesnt actively make their systems with the same improvements provided in previous expansions -- and it does piss off a playerbase who wants to play but has no reason to and feels unrewarded for their time spent.

Sure, WoW sucks right now and isnt good -- but going "DAE SL = WoD" is just so tiresome.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

No, WoD literally had no content. Open world was dead. Garrisons provided all you needed so players rarely left them. Ashran sucked. Raid-logging was super prevalent. Only thing WoD had going was classes -- but if you had no content to do, class design basically meant nothing.

SL just doesnt have continuous rewarding content after loot changes. Lessened loot means less drive to do rewarding content. Maw and Torghast offer no long term rewards for actively doing them. Blizzard just doesnt actively make their systems with the same improvements provided in previous expansions -- and it does piss off a playerbase who wants to play but has no reason to and feels unrewarded for their time spent.

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Part of what keeps a lot of players going in WoW is running old content for transmog items (glamour) and mounts/minions. Even when everything in the current expansion feels awful, players can go back and get things that they want. That's how I got through WoD and BfA, really. lol Unfortunately, their recent stat/level squish messed with old content scaling hard, so those who would normally solo farm old raids (and therefore prolonging how long they stay subbed) are having a difficult time doing so in Legion raids, which is what many were looking forward to farming. Legion is a major point of contention here, because by now players would usually be able to run into these raids and solo them for the most part with the Legacy buff. There is no legacy buff in these raids despite meeting the criteria (11+ levels over the content in question). And the dev team only admitted to messing this up after being caught red handed and have yet to fix it to my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Legion is a major point of contention here, because by now players would usually be able to run into these raids and solo them for the most part with the Legacy buff. And the dev team only admitted to messing this up after being caught red handed and have yet to fix it to my knowledge. I might have left WoW, but I still keep myself updated every now and then just in case things do improve.

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To be honest, I've never had this issue -- but this may be based upon the class I play and the gear I have. The only real issues I have is Mythic Guldan (because his final phase is a DPS race with a one-shot mechanic), Mythic Avatar/Kil, and then Mythic Antorus I havent tried (simply because it has too many bosses that require more than 1 person to do; which need to be fixed since its antiquated content.)

I do agree that Blizzard SHOULD IMMEDIATELY fix the older content -- but the content is also based upon what gear you have as well. Blizzard itself just doesnt have good track record on that (Mythic Hellfire was impossible due to Ramparts being broken and requiring two people to do).

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

I do agree that Blizzard SHOULD IMMEDIATELY fix the older content -- but the content is also based upon what gear you have as well. Blizzard itself just doesnt have good track record on that (Mythic Hellfire was impossible due to Ramparts being broken and requiring two people to do).

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Oh, it most certainly is. And I tested normal/heroic raids prior to bowing out and had very little problems with them in Legion content. Mythic was a little chaotic at points even before the changes but some bosses were doable. This was largely before we were even able to start leveling again though. After gaining 10 more levels my characters felt weaker which shouldn't happen. My gear was better. My level was higher. So...where was the increased strength? We were told that nothing would change after the stat/level squishes and that players could do everything they could do prior. This was a lie, and they got caught. Admittedly, this is why I'm skeptical of the changes this dev team is making with Endwalker.