Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

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Originally Posted by Elladie

And you don't think calling people Black Knights isn't going to rub people up the wrong way? That seems to be aimed at causing offence. My apologies if you didn't intend it that way, but you should perhaps take more care how you phrase things. I do know how easy it is when things get heated to start hurling insults - I have done it myself - but it's rather egregious to do it in a response to a request for trying to keep a balanced perspective.

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No, it wasn't intended to be offensive, by virtue of the same fact that "White Knighting" has become such a overused accusation that no one who uses it unironically is taken seriously anymore. Seriously calling someone a "White Knight" is as much forum suicide as invoking Godwin's Law, and if the same is not true for Black Knighting, it should be.

I used both Black and White Knights in the referenced paragraph as a drily sarcastic way of portraying the two groups, and if anyone in either camp SERIOUSLY thinks anyone in the other is mindlessly supporting/bashing Hydaelyn, they need a reality check.

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I don't believe anyone is arguing that Hydaelyn is evil. I'm certainly not. I don't think - in view of what we've recently learned - she has enough autonomy to have a moral position, she merely does what she's designed to do. Whatever that costs. Including shattering the star and everything on it into 14 pieces and hi-jacking Minfilia. To reiterate again, this is just my opinion. I don't agree the writers have gone out of their way to show Hydaelyn as not morally grey, I think they've been very careful to present her in such a way that the player can interpret her actions differently depending on perspective. I'm not blinkered enough to think my perspective is the only one, and I'm happy to discuss my thoughts cordially. But I'm getting tired of being demonised because I don't jump on the 'Hydaelyn is amazing train' right away.

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For a time, after Emet's revelations, I had downgraded my perception of Hydaelyn in much the same way that you did - that she was a sophisticated automaton. Again, though, as I noted in my discussion, I think that the Scions utter failure to doubt Hydaelyn is a clue the writers are giving us that there's more to her than that. Minfilia's sacrifice is cheapened, if the god she trusted her life to turns out to have just been heartlessly using her. I don't think the writers want that. The Scions heard every word from Emet-Selch that we do, and while they expressed some sympathy for the Ancients' fall, they haven't expressed any of the concerns that we have about Hydaelyn's character.

At this point? I believe that Emet earnestly believes that Hydaelyn is a Primal, just like Zodiark - but I'm starting to think that he's wrong. The Ascians' greatest fault is their unending arrogance. They always presume that they know best, and that their way is the only way possible - and therefore, Hydaelyn must be the same thing Zodiark is, a pale imitation of their (obviously superior, cuz they made it) all powerful god, who was only able to gain the upper hand by way of a cheap trick.

While I agree that Hydaelyn probably is not as powerful as Zodiark was, I AM having my doubts that she's a Primal, or at least if she is, she's a very different sort of Primal. The following is speculation on my part, but I think it fits the facts we have so far: Where Zodiark is a will of the planet the Convocation created to suit their goals, I think she's the TRUE will of the planet, given form. The planet was suffering, on the verge of being torn apart by the Ancients' Creation magic - magic they were using with abandon, not realizing the toll it was taking. Even BEFORE the Sound emerged, the world was on the path to destruction, thanks to these abuses. The Sound was the only way she could respond - at least until the Dissenters stepped in to provide her with a form that gave her more agency (and possibly sapience, as well).

I think things are shaping into a quasi-environmentalist message, much like the one provided in FFVII: An advanced society abusing a seemingly endless resource, either unaware of the harm they're causing or pretending it doesn't exist because to acknowledge it would endanger the comfortable status quo. The Convocation, when finally forced to confront the issue, chose to try to enforce the status quo, rather than acknowledge the damage they were causing. If the planet was being unruly, summon an all-powerful being to force it to toe the line! No compromises were to be made, the world would be as THEY will it, and their society would continue on as it was. The Dissenters, on the other hand, recognized the harm, and gave the planet the tools it needed to fight back.

The result is a being with her own will and her own personality, one occasionally forced by Morton's Fork to make hard decisions, but ultimately meaning well.

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There is plenty in the game to allow me to be suspicious of Hydaelyn's role. I don't think she's evil, I'm not saying the Ascians are right, I don't want to fall down and worship Zodiark. But I am not accepting Hydaelyn as an all seeing, all knowing, all wise Mother currently because that isn't how she's coming across to me in the story. You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation; my point is that it's a valid one, and the writers have made sure it can come across as a valid one in their presentation of Hydaelyn

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I don't think ANY of Hydaelyn's supporters see her as all seeing, all knowing, and all wise, and for you to suggest that is practically a "White Knight" accusation in itself, even if you don't use the words! Her supporters DO believe that she's a good person who means well, and is doing the best that she can with the tools that she has, minimizing harm as much as she is able while still preventing the worst from coming to pass - but because she is not all-powerful or all-knowing, that harm is not zero. In-game, not even Louisoix or the Scions ever showed any belief that Hydaelyn was a perfect being. They did regard her as a powerful friend and ally, and one who should be supported.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

There is a void of information on that matter. We kinda know why she was summoned. But I don't think we have any idea what her concrete purpose and directive was (is) that the creators bestowed on her? I doubt she was just manifested as an ideal. Defeating something much stronger would imply some premeditation.

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If we look at Emet-Selch's account of events as told after the Qitana Ravel, and use Hythlodaeus' account to filter out his pro-Zodiark bias and gain some additional context, Hydaelyn's purpose becomes explicitly clear.

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Originally Posted by Emet-Selch

[Zodiark was a] savior mighty and magnificent, deserving of reverence and gratitude... one would have thought. Yet some thought otherwise. From the fears of these naysayers would rise Hydaelyn - She who was to serve as His shackles. To bind Him and hold Him in check. And so they fought, and they fought, and they fought. And in the end... Hydaelyn was victorious. With all Her strength She smote Him - dealing a blow so devastating that it split the very fabric of reality. And thus was Zodiark banished and His being divided.

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Originally Posted by Hythlodaeus

The cycle of life had begun anew, and we reconsidered the means by which we might protect it. The Convocation decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then, when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark... In return, He would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards. There were, however, those who disagreed with this plan. They argued that enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark─that this new world should belong to the lives newly born. These dissidents surrendered their life energies in the creation of Hydaelyn, an incarnation of their opposing belief. And for the first time in history, our people stood divided... Know you, then, how this conflict ended?

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Hydaelyn was created to serve as a check against Zodiark's nearly almighty power and to stop his supporters from perverting the cycle of life and death.

Her ability to split and bind Zodiark stems from her elemental affinity - as we now know Light is the element of stasis and enervation, and it would be needed on the scale Hydaelyn can use to do so. According to Emet-Selch's account the finishing blow on Zodiark was so grievous it alone tore reality into the shards and Source, and unfortunately that's one bit Hythlodaeus' account doesn't give additional context to, but the conclusion I draw from the information we have is that Zodiark's whole was too great for her to bind, so Hydaelyn broke him down into pieces to do so... but because Zodiark is "the will of the Star made manifest," that did the same to the world in the process.

Further information may change or give additional context to this, but it is the clearest picture available of the origins of the Hydaelyn / Zodiark conflict. It's not vague in any way.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

While I agree that Hydaelyn probably is not as powerful as Zodiark was, I AM having my doubts that she's a Primal, or at least if she is, she's a very different sort of Primal. The following is speculation on my part, but I think it fits the facts we have so far: Where Zodiark is a will of the planet the Convocation created to suit their goals, I think she's the TRUE will of the planet, given form. The planet was suffering, on the verge of being torn apart by the Ancients' Creation magic - magic they were using with abandon, not realizing the toll it was taking. Even BEFORE the Sound emerged, the world was on the path to destruction, thanks to these abuses. The Sound was the only way she could respond - at least until the Dissenters stepped in to provide her with a form that gave her more agency (and possibly sapience, as well).

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While I am not of the mind that Hydaelyn is the "true" will of the planet, I concur that the Ancients' heavy use of creation magicks may have been directly or indirectly responsible for the Terminus. There is a cause behind everything.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I don't think it makes sense to attribute that specific power of breaking up Zodiark just to her elemental affinity though? Umbral and astral are depicted as polar opposites, and one has no distinct (known) advantage over the other. If we assume that Zodiark is stronger, and that he fought back at all, it wouldn't make sense that he lost in one "hit" (or at all).

If she was summoned to "keep Zodiark in check", then one would assume the summoners gave her specific powers that would make it possible, given the difference in strength. I guess keeping him in check technically includes slicing him and the world up, sealing him, but then that would imply that she was either designed to do so from the start, or that her creators miscalculated somewhere, did not expect this outcome, and Hydaelyn came up with a convenient solution by herself which ignores the difference in power.

Or, as mentioned, its possible that Zodiark just didn't resist at all. After all, for all we know Zodiark might've been just a mindless wish fulfillment device (which might also explain why the effects of his tempering seem to be as lax as they are). If such is the case then I fully agree with your train of thought.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I don't think it makes sense to attribute that specific power of breaking up Zodiark just to her elemental affinity though? Umbral and astral are depicted as polar opposites, and one has no distinct (known) advantage over the other. If we assume that Zodiark is stronger, and that he fought back at all, it wouldn't make sense that he lost in one "hit" (or at all).

If she was summoned to "keep Zodiark in check", then one would assume the summoners gave her specific powers that would make it possible, given the difference in strength. I guess keeping him in check technically includes slicing him and the world up, sealing him, but then that would imply that she was either designed to do so from the start, or that her creators miscalculated somewhere, did not expect this outcome, and Hydaelyn came up with a convenient solution by herself which ignores the difference in power.

Or, as mentioned, its possible that Zodiark just didn't resist at all. After all, for all we know Zodiark might've been just a mindless wish fulfillment device (which might also explain why the effects of his tempering seem to be as lax as they are). If such is the case then I fully agree with your train of thought.

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This is getting pedantic.

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Originally Posted by Emet-Selch

... Hydaelyn - She who was to serve as [Zodiark's] shackles. To bind Him and hold Him in check.

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Originally Posted by Hythlodaeus

[Zodiark] would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards. There were, however, those who disagreed with this plan. They argued that enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark─that this new world should belong to the lives newly born. These dissidents surrendered their life energies in the creation of Hydaelyn, an incarnation of their opposing belief.

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Hydaelyn was created to imprison Zodiark; defeating him would be part and parcel with that, and as per Emet-Selch's account they did fight for a long while. The sentiment behind doing so was that life should exist on its own terms and not as livestock for Zodiark's followers to use as fuel for him. (Specifically not to be used as fuel for hypocritically resurrecting the dead in order to protect the cycle of life.)

How did Hydaelyn do as much? It's not entirely clear given she would have, at most, marginally less than 1/4 of the energy that was used to create Zodiark, but aside from being an existence opposite to him (having the opposite polarity, if you must be so pedantic) her more specialized purpose may have made her more energy efficient. ("Do whatever we want you to" vs. "Imprison the other guy.")

Again, I would posit that Hydaelyn's Light element polarity is a major contributing factor to her ability to defeat Zodiark, and that the Sundering was an unintended side effect of sundering Zodiark in order to fulfill her directive of imprisoning him due to his whole being too powerful.

This is the most that can be derived from the available information. More information is required to get a clearer picture of what happened and how it happened.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

This is the most that can be derived from the available information. More information is required to get a clearer picture of what happened and how it happened.

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Bear in mind, too, that Hythlodaeus does NOT provide a corroborating source to accompany Emet's - he's the SAME SOURCE. Even if independently willed, Hythlodaeus was created by Emet, from Emet's own memories and beliefs. While Hythlodaeus might be more open and unbiased about what Hydaelyn and her purpose is, if Emet believes that Hy is one thing, then Hythlodaeus will believe the same. If Emet is outright WRONG about what Hydaelyn is, then Hythlodaeus will be, as well.

We definitely need more information, and an independent perspective. If Hydaelyn is on trial, right now we have only her own testimony and Emet-Selch's. We need an unbiased third party before we can make any kind of judgment.

I am interested in seeing how Zodiark might be characterized, if he is brought back. (I don't see how Zodiark can be brought back without destroying the remaining Shards, and it'd feel anticlimactic if he was introduced as a new character in the last few hours to serve as the final villain to the mega story. I think it's more likely that Elidibus will become the avatar of Zodiark, or Zenos will consume Zodiark's power).

He was initially created to save the world, born out of the desperation and self sacrifice of the Amaurotines. You'd think that Zodiark would be more protective of life? We know that the Convocation were planning to feed the newborn life to Zodiark, but we have no indication as to Zodiark's thoughts on the matter. The Ascian's have painted him in a bad light as the generic Evil God, but for all we know he could've been pretty chill.

The backstory implies that the Convocation thought that they could somehow get Zodiark to accept the sacrifices. Zenos was able to dominate Shinryu (and thinks he can consume Zodiark's power, though we don't know if that is Zenos power tripping, or if he intends on mastering his abilities or formulating a plan to make that possible), but Zodiark seems so awesomely powerful that he might be able to resist any form of mind control. Maybe if the 13 remaining Convocation members combined their strength, they would have had the power to dominate Zodiark? This was back before mankind got split, when they were at 14/14 of their full strength, rather than the 8/14 seen in most of the Source's inhabitants and the 1/14 seen on the rest of the Shards.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I am interested in seeing how Zodiark might be characterized, if he is brought back. (I don't see how Zodiark can be brought back without destroying the remaining Shards, and it'd feel anticlimactic if he was introduced as a new character in the last few hours to serve as the final villain to the mega story. I think it's more likely that Elidibus will become the avatar of Zodiark, or Zenos will consume Zodiark's power).

He was initially created to save the world, born out of the desperation and self sacrifice of the Amaurotines. You'd think that Zodiark would be more protective of life? We know that the Convocation were planning to feed the newborn life to Zodiark, but we have no indication as to Zodiark's thoughts on the matter. The Ascian's have painted him in a bad light as the generic Evil God, but for all we know he could've been pretty chill.

The backstory implies that the Convocation thought that they could somehow get Zodiark to accept the sacrifices. Zenos was able to dominate Shinryu (and thinks he can consume Zodiark's power, though we don't know if that is Zenos power tripping, or if he intends on mastering his abilities or formulating a plan to make that possible), but Zodiark seems so awesomely powerful that he might be able to resist any form of mind control. Maybe if the 13 remaining Convocation members combined their strength, they would have had the power to dominate Zodiark? This was back before mankind got split, when they were at 14/14 of their full strength, rather than the 8/14 seen in most of the Source's inhabitants and the 1/14 seen on the rest of the Shards.

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Zodiark already accepted sacrifices. The first sacrifice was half of their number going "please make this stop", which is tragic, but doesn't actually say anything about Zodiark. But the second sacrifice, of a further half (ie one quarter of the original number), was done to restore the environment, and I can't imagine a being powerful enough to do that and yet "protective of life" would consent to that, unless influenced by another source. So I'm wondering if the Convocation had already imposed their will on Zodiark by that time.

I've always said that we know nothing about Zodiark's will, whether good or bad, but it's very clear that the self-proclaimed representatives of Zodiark have all been very badly-behaved when it comes to leaving us be to live and let live. Given Emet-Selch's assertion that Zodiark tempered his summoners, it's not looking good for Zodiark, but it would be foolish to accept an Ascian at their word anyway, so there's always room for doubt. (Ascians don't usually speak outright falsehoods; they just speak in a way that is actively misleading, by deliberately withholding key context.)

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Zodiark already accepted sacrifices. The first sacrifice was half of their number going "please make this stop", which is tragic, but doesn't actually say anything about Zodiark. But the second sacrifice, of a further half (ie one quarter of the original number), was done to restore the environment, and I can't imagine a being powerful enough to do that and yet "protective of life" would consent to that, unless influenced by another source. So I'm wondering if the Convocation had already imposed their will on Zodiark by that time.

I've always said that we know nothing about Zodiark's will, whether good or bad, but it's very clear that the self-proclaimed representatives of Zodiark have all been very badly-behaved when it comes to leaving us be to live and let live. Given Emet-Selch's assertion that Zodiark tempered his summoners, it's not looking good for Zodiark, but it would be foolish to accept an Ascian at their word anyway, so there's always room for doubt. (Ascians don't usually speak outright falsehoods; they just speak in a way that is actively misleading, by deliberately withholding key context.)

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I have always assumed it was nothing to do with Zodiark wanting sacrifices, only that massive amounts of aether were needed for every stage. The implication has always been that the first sacrifice was to have enough aether to create Zodiark, the second to have enough aether to power him up to create new life on the star. The third would have been to have enough aether that he could somehow restore the lost friends and family (retrieve them from the aetherial sea somehow? We've never had any clear answer of how this was going to work. We do know Emet Selch can pull the lost from the Lifestream like he did with Y'shtola so maybe it was this on a massive scale)

It has always seemed obvious to me that the reason Hydaelyn is so much weaker than Zodiark is that she wasn't created with the huge amounts of aether that he was. Zodiark wasn't accepting sacrifices, in the first instance he didn't even exist (as far as we know) This was Amaurotine creation magic on a massive scale

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I've always said that we know nothing about Zodiark's will, whether good or bad, but it's very clear that the self-proclaimed representatives of Zodiark have all been very badly-behaved when it comes to leaving us be to live and let live. Given Emet-Selch's assertion that Zodiark tempered his summoners, it's not looking good for Zodiark, but it would be foolish to accept an Ascian at their word anyway, so there's always room for doubt. (Ascians don't usually speak outright falsehoods; they just speak in a way that is actively misleading, by deliberately withholding key context.)

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The behavior of the Tempered does not necessarily reflect on the character of the Primal. Ramuh taught us that. He disapproves of Tempering and of being summoned, and yet his Tempered do these things anyway.

Tempered are slavishly devoted to their Primal. They work toward the interests of their Primal, and work to ensure that their Primal be summoned. This means that they might do things that their Primal would expressly disapprove of - were that Primal around to speak its mind.

Sadly, with Zenos in the picture, we might NEVER know Zodiark's true feelings, if he even has any and is not just an emotionless wish-machine. I'm pretty confident that Zodiark will be summoned at some point, and that Zenos will take command as he did with Shinryu. And when that happens, we'll know as much about Zodiark's thoughts and feelings as we know about Shinryu's.

Maybe we can hope that if Zenos tries to eat Zodiark it backfires spectacularly and instead of Zenos being in control its Zodiark who takes the reins.

I think I'd prefer to have it that way instead of another Shinryu... we could atleast then hear Zodiark's point of view at that time.