Dear SE, stop homogenizing jobs

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Originally Posted by Grann-Goro

As long as people will ask for new jobs to be added, SE will be forced to homogenize jobs, so no job combinaison becomes too much stronger than others.
In other words : stop asking for new jobs !
For a game where parties are made with only 8 people, they are already far too many jobs currently !

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Originally Posted by purgatori

That's only a problem for the high-end raiding scene. So no, the problem isn't "adding too many jobs." (Though I think we might have enough DPS now... That might be an unpopular opinion)

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And really, the high end raiding scene will see job discrimination, regardless of how minuscule the difference between jobs is. If you're doing high-end progression raids, you bring your best crew with the most effective job selection until you have it down; and then after that, you start bringing in the non-optimal group members.
That's how it is and how it will be in every game that has even minor class differences.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

This excuse held up in older MMOs when you only had one character and one job, now you have a multiple job character. They need to make one raid tier cater to some jobs and the next cater to the others. If you dont wanna switch jobs, then you are entitled.

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This is the most ridiculous quote I’ve read on a forum.

MMORPGs are built on the back of the concept of maining one class. We aren’t being entitled, we play what we enjoy and expect the balance to be in a position where we can play the game as we want.

Ofcourse classes should be balanced. It’s ridiculous to revolve a mmorpg around a FoTM system of when things get wildly overpowered. It also would make balancing the raids themselves severely difficult.

You should not be expected to play every class in the game to a exceptional level to savage raid. Nor should it be required to gear 28 classes to enter raiding either.

Amazingly enough players pay to participate in the game. It’s not being entitled it’s being reasonable.

This isn’t overwatch, yes we can level up several classes on one character. But that doesn’t mean the game doesn’t punish you for continously swapping mains.

It will put you behind on gearing etc etc. And will cost masses of gold to keep putting new materia etc etc to build all the sets of armour your gonna need to sustain such a idea.

You can create balanced and fun classes, its just a simple case of balancing the kit within itself. FFXIV has a good lead in creating this as Raid dps is a big recognisition in the game unlike wow where utility isn’t as cared for.

Homogenization creates way more variety in the end. Unless you want a situation where there are only a handful of classes "allowed" in progression content and party finder groups.

Balance is far more important than variety, but SE has to find a good middle ground. I think as it stands classes feel distinct enough.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Homogenization creates way more variety in the end. Unless you want a situation where there are only a handful of classes "allowed" in progression content and party finder groups.

Balance is far more important than variety, but SE has to find a good middle ground. I think as it stands classes feel distinct enough.

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Except it doesn’t. No matter how hard you try to balance a game there is always going to be a meta that states which classes should used, it’s just the nature of the beast.

Variety is just as important as balance and I disagree with the tanking and healing jobs feeling distinct enough. Hell Dark Knight barely feels (to me) like a Dark Knight anymore, we feel more like a Warrior with some of Paladin’s old moves (looking at you rampart) stitched on to patch up some holes Sqaure created after tearing out most of our unique abilities (gonna pour one out for my homies Scourge, Dark Passenger, Blood Price, and OG delirium).

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Homogenization creates way more variety in the end.

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;)

And sameness creates more difference it does!

That aside, I don't think those of us who don't care about Savage would be too broken hearted over that community squabbling about the viability/desirability of this or that job. I mean, if the argument boils down to "I refuse to play a job from this subset of jobs regarded as being viable, and insist on playing x job, so fix it" and "fix it" = "make it play like the other jobs" then it seems to be that the argument is a self defeating one, since the end result is that now job x plays just like the jobs you didn't want to play instead.

Unfortunately, OP, fun cannot come before raid balance because of how the English speaking community operates. Too many groups in PF only want the mathematically optimal compositions, tossing aside everyone else. So, jobs get homogenized so that everyone has a fair chance of getting in. Why else did they do this? Their analytics must tell them the same thing.

Want to get rid of homogenization? Don't look at the developers, but at the community instead.

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

Except it doesn’t. No matter how hard you try to balance a game there is always going to be a meta that states which classes should used, it’s just the nature of the beast.

Variety is just as important as balance and I disagree with the tanking and healing jobs feeling distinct enough. Hell Dark Knight barely feels (to me) like a Dark Knight anymore, we feel more like a Warrior with some of Paladin’s old moves (looking at you rampart) stitched on to patch up some holes Sqaure created after tearing out most of our unique abilities (gonna pour one out for my homies Scourge, Dark Passenger, Blood Price, and OG delirium).

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Sure, there will always be a meta, but classes need to be mostly interchangeable in their roles. That's THE most important rule when designing this kind of game. SE should strive to implement as much variety as possible while adhering to that rule, but these roles CAN'T be functionally different.

Meta is one thing, but I've played games where guilds wouldn't even accept certain classes. Some classes spend YEARS being completely ousted from all serious content mainly because their design was such a curve-ball that it was nearly impossible to make them work in anything but VERY specific situations.

Homogenization is really important. I understand wanting variety, but pushing for too much of it is playing with fire. Your favorite job may end up being the one that falls into an inescapable pit.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Homogenization creates way more variety in the end. Unless you want a situation where there are only a handful of classes "allowed" in progression content and party finder groups.

Balance is far more important than variety, but SE has to find a good middle ground. I think as it stands classes feel distinct enough.

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Except that's not variety except in name and perhaps aesthetics.

Why are so many so quick to assume a fatalistic zero-sum between variety in gameplay (jobs each feeling different to play) and, well, variety in gameplay (all those different jobs being playable in most compositions possible for most fights)? They're not. It's just a question of quantity and quality of encounter designs and the mechanics beneath combat in general. Any time you can't have both, within reason, something has badly failed at a more fundamental level.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Except that's not variety except in name and perhaps aesthetics.

Why are so many so quick to assume a fatalistic zero-sum between variety in gameplay (jobs each feeling different to play) and, well, variety in gameplay (all those different jobs being playable in most compositions possible for most fights)? They're not. It's just a question of quantity and quality of encounter designs and the mechanics beneath combat in general. Any time you can't have both, within reason, something has badly failed at a more fundamental level.

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No ones assuming any kind of fatalistic zero-sum; we can and do already have both. Variety always comes at a cost to balance, though. As of right now balance is pretty good in this game, but if we keep demanding variety there's going to be a tipping point.

Classes will eventually be broken beyond repair for the sake of making them "different." I personally like knowing that if my job is going through a rough period that could easily change in a patch or 2. Conversely, I've played MMO's where some classes were so far off the beaten path they would require a complete tear down to fix, and everyone knew that would never happen and was resigned to just not ever getting to play the class seriously. All I'm saying is be careful what you wish for.

Forgot those who raids are entitled to know every aspect of job and knows whats right or not. I miss those simpliest CAST heals..